Humberto is a Co-Founder and Product Owner of dashdash. Dashdash is a web-app creator with a spreadsheet interface allowing you to build Build powerful sales and marketing tools.

He also helped build 3 other digital businesses, Skin.pt, EatFirst.com and AirCourts.com

In this discussion, Ben and Humberto Discuss:

• Building with a no-code mentality
• Why dashdash uses the spreadsheet as the foundation of their product
• The major use cases for dashdash users‍

Humberto - DashDash - Podcast-MP3 for Audio PodcastingTue, 9/29 3:47PM • 43:49

people, spreadsheet, tools, build, companies, code, dashdash, zapier, api, maker, table, create, users, big, find, community, flow, players, feature, airtable

Humberto, Ben Tossell

00:00Hey everybody, it's Ben here, founder of Makerpad, a platform teaching individuals and companies how to build custom software workflows and tools without writing code. This show explores the people behind the no code tools and the stories of folks using them to automate work and launch companies. So I'm here with Humberto from dashdash merging with Gianna give a quick intro to who you are and, and what dashdash is, and we can jump in.

00:27Yeah, so Humberto, I'm one of the cofounders. And currently the CO backslash co founder started when we started this journey in 2016. And what we're building is a spreadsheet where users are in control of their ideas. So they can do all the normal crazy things they want spreadsheets, but much more, including services, automation, and even user interfaces. I guess we'll talk a bit about that. Very excited to be joining maker bad. First, thank you for creating maker. It helps us all, it really raises that type.

01:08Appreciate that, I think. I mean, I'm, I'm happy to make paddlers sort of pulled out of me as a real sort of company, because it was just a, like a passion thing that I was doing before. And there's just a real need for it. So yeah, we're excited with what we're building and hope to do more with awesome tools with dashdash and others. And yeah, we've got a bunch of things coming soon, too. So yeah, I wonder how how did because I haven't heard of dashdash on many podcasts. So in previous episodes, we've, we've skipped the intro of the companies, because they may be like web flow or bubble. People often know the stories there. So I'd love to hear a bit about the story of dashdash, where it sort of where was the problem? And how did you sort of come up with what is is currently on our screens?

02:02Yeah, so I, I'm a consultant, I'm an engineer, and I worked in consulting for for a while. And as you know, spreadsheets are a big thing, then, also in finance, and accounting, and pretty much everywhere. But especially in consulting people take a lot of pride in spreadsheets, and what kinds of things you can deal with them. And so I've always chrome used to be able to solve practically any modeling of any process with with a spreadsheet. And what we noticed is that is that so me, and Torben, and the early team said, when you're working in spreadsheets, you can model a process, you can create a to do list or, or a plan or a simulation of a company. But at some point, you go out of the spreadsheet, and you go execute the real things, and then you come back to the spreadsheet, and just data standards, etc. And, and what we thought is can we can we widen the perimeter of things so that you actually do not have to use a spreadsheet or the spreadsheet itself self update, when those real life statuses when when your real process is really working? And so from that, from that thought, came the search of are people really looking for doing services inside spreadsheets? And, and obviously, Google Sheets already already led to do some things maybe for you, like, check stocks and, and translate decks, for example. They've been they've been doing that for a while. And we thought, okay, generically, what if you can connect to any API, so you can get more than stuff, they can find things on LinkedIn, etc. And, and indeed, when we started looking on Quora, and Stack Overflow, and all the other forums in a pre maker, Pat era, there were lots of people asking for this, like, literally, lots of people asked me for this. And once we dug deeper, we saw it that was a real need. And, and, and strategy and very, very common fingers, 1 billion registered users out of which there's 30 to 40 million very, very hardcore experts, active users, we thought that this is a great market. And and spreadsheets are probably right for some some sometimes disruption.

04:28Yeah. So are you looking at that sort of 30 to 40 million particle users or you trying to expand the amount of hardcore users with the capabilities of data?

04:41Yeah, so we've tried to expand it, obviously, easier said than done. micropatterned file I understand correctly, you also have different scales of users, right. People who are more pro and actually are contributors to the who write on maker pad as well as read From the prepare. So it is no code for us, which which seems to be the topic we're getting it is, is, is what enables regular people. So business people, people who have other things to do other than engineering to access engineering life features or real engineering features. And for us, no code is really more more of a property rather than a category of products, right? We don't consider ourselves like, we are no code. First, we are a spreadsheet. And we build a spreadsheet with a no code mentality and philosophy. insight from so for example, things which you find on Google Sheets, like having Google Apps, scripts, and things like that you find on Excel and VBA, you don't find the index, because those are basic violations of, of the no code. proposition which is people should be able to do those things if there is a simple way for them to do it. And we think that there is a simple way for people to do side effects, create tables from other tables and and talk to services. And so we don't we don't create this side language is that is more complex than it needs to be.

06:13Yeah. So did you? I mean, how long did it take for you to sort of identify this need? And then start building it? Is it still in private beta? Is that right?

06:27Yes, it's in private beta we have with we are a bit short of 1000 users for a platform. And out of which we have a couple hundred people who are quite engaged with the platform. And we use this, we even have a cohort of people who uses it daily, and very keen, it's dozens of thousands of requests every week. And so it took a while. So we first we got our previous jobs termini. In July 2016, we had our first line of code written, I believe, in the second of January 2017. And then it was about two years to really reach a mature alpha. So it takes a lot of time to do a spreadsheet. We obviously do it through the lifetime, it's going to be easy building a business. Yeah. And how hard can a spreadsheet be? It's pretty hard. There's lots of lots of small details like how the correlation between vowels in a spreadsheet, you can sum a date with the currency, and there's an expected value. And we want to we want things to be recognizable by users. So one to play along, took us about two years to move from nothing to a very stable alpha. and now it's going to be, I think, until middle of this year, actually really interesting info to everyone.

07:51Awesome. So suppose that over that time period, there's not it was sort of when no code was becoming trendy, or there was people started talking about no code is a thing. Did you when you first started, were you? Were you even thinking of it as no code? Or were you just thinking of building this spreadsheet with extra functionality? Or was it like, how do we do this for non technical people? What was your thinking? Well,

08:18I can't claim credit for any no qualified marketing term. That is an awesome term, even though there's ample debate, I think there's always debate on coin terms. But actually, our vision since the beginning was very, very close to a local proposition. So what the way we the way we explain our our roadmap internally and even to investors, and everyone else who was interested, is that we see that there's three main challenges in building tools that have this strong local proposition. So the first one is the creative challenge, right? So people want to create things, and they need this ID and epd this tool where they express their ideas, and, and this language where they express it can be visual and textual can be cell based, because it has to be powerful. So it's kind of like the the parallel to, to the coding tools have engineers, they also have repositories and terminals and, and, and hosting. And, and when you move to the local world, you have to have only one tool for that, like people use a table or web flow. They don't need to manage 50 different tools all at once. And so first is to create the problem. The second one is the audience problem means meaning when you create something and you want to share it with others, you rarely want to create something just for yourself. You want things to be shareable and scalable in a social way. And so what is the output of what you're building? with the with the with the workflow is beautifully designed websites right. And we and we are faced with this question like spreadsheets are not Pretty by default, right. And so with this philosophy that we needed to solve the audience problem, we could publish a, you create a button, you click the button, then we generate a web page with inputs and buttons, and whatever you. And then the third challenge, the creator challenge, audience challenge. And then the community challenge, which is actually something which you guys started solving. And thanks for that. No programming language, and no coding style is ever been popular in a vacuum. You always need ample discussion, you always need ample examples, tutorials, templates, all of his fans of forum s. places and he consistently ever existed before encoding they have existed before in spreadsheets like Mr. excel.com, or Excel forms of conduct have hundreds of thousands of users. But we need something that is a bit more actionable, kind of like how you guys build a bigger fan. Meaning you can actually look, for example, and I already see how it works. It's all just question and answer. Yeah. So those three challenges work seems to beginning something that we already knew that we had to happen. I think these matches perfect. We have not seen any tool, which claims to be no code that hasn't got a strong position, creator, audience and community. Yeah,

11:22I think yeah, I think it's funny that most of these companies that now either the community sees is no code, or they now positioned themselves as no code never started, got started off as no code, like from the from the get go. So it's funny to see now, companies are starting that start as an open tool. Because Yeah, like you said, I mean, there's debates around what to call it this movement, or whatever it is. I think it's just an easy way for people don't identify what the thing is, or how you can use it. But I think everyone should have make software easier to use for not just technical people, but non technical people. So

12:06if you're interested in like, like the slack, we were at a conference a couple of weeks ago in us. And we had a panel of CIOs, many sales of Joe boring and Nike and stuff like that. And slack. slack was was was explaining the reason they were showing their local product, which is their automations, their new automation product. And and they're very cautious to call it no code, obviously, because we because we flag they're already an enterprise platform and enterprise people are kind of still a bit scared over the shadow IT question like they they don't want mushrooms to pop up in an already populated and the IP infrastructure. But but it's clear that even heavyweights understand that they now need to have a solution, a powerful solution for regular people. And I guess we will see where governance falls in use over the next five years or so. But it's a super interesting topic that even being large public companies are developing products with, with our community in mind.

13:16Yeah, for sure. And I think even there's the enterprise company unqork. They they brand themselves, they have like no code in their, in their heading, where other companies don't necessarily they might have, like application development or something like that. They do see some people just sort of tackling it head on and they've got big companies using them. So I think it's becoming more widespread. And yeah, be interesting to see how it happens. And like you said, it's, it's not just about building the thing. There's got to be like, the example of how do I do this thing, then how does that completely translate to the thing that I'm trying to build? Or I'm trying to do? And yeah, obviously, we're trying to do a lot of that. But what do you think is like, a good way for people to be able to expand their knowledge there? Or is it more about being? You've got to be curious, you've got to see that okay, dashdash, you can use that for sales and data enrichment. So now I've got to go deep on this, or is there just a world where there are there is a tutorial for every single scenario.

14:28It's a super interesting question. You have endless debates on this. It seems like the world operates on different levels for this is our perspective. Like you have tools like like the iPhone, right? You buy an iPhone, and there's very little tutorials and things. It is meant to be understandable, immediately and without any introduction. And this kind of mechanical reaction requires a lot of study of how humans interact. With the tools, and I guess it requires massive investment and a lot of a lot of years to get to that stage. There's other than that, I think that the best Avenue is really tutorials and, and as much social as they can be meaning you are on a tool, there is this is a scoring tool called glitch, and we are aware of them. And they have created this concept, which I know it's original called remix in, which we absolutely love. So essentially, you create some code back end and front end in their ID chips, the JavaScript and, and, and the back end JavaScript as well. to, to, to, to, to an instance of our server. And then, and then once that is live, you can access the public version, you can actually section website to build, there's a little button renew, essentially copy the source code back into your own workspace. And I think this is going to be where where things become interesting is when the actual output the audience solution, which you created, the product, which you created, already has an input in ideal testing, and you're using this product. But hey, we are happy to share how we build you. I think this is going to be the major thing, it's not going to be you solving your problem in a vacuum to try to be better than others it's going to be we solve the problem. You can also solve this problem equally.

16:34Yeah, I think it's really interesting. You said that because I do know glitch. And we have a remix feature on megapath. We have our like, when people post their projects, we're trying to look the community to post Oh, I build this awesome thing using whatever tools. And then there's a way that says remix, which isn't quite as technically capable as glitch right now. It doesn't copy everything over. But I think Yeah, we've got that we're trying to build that mentality. And to show off something that you've built with a certain number of tools or something. Someone could copy that if you're like detailing how you did it, someone could remix it and do and like do something similar with with that same stack or the same tool? Yeah, so we're trying to look at ways to encourage that in the community also, and, and make people aware of that. And obviously things like webflow have their cloning feature. So there are local sort of native ways to clone things and duplicate things. So hopefully that our remix feature just sort of points towards the tools themselves to say, Okay, well go and download this template from here, go and download this spreadsheet from here and, and do it up. But yeah,

17:52absolutely. I think that's the good thing. And which is bad for us in some ways, but of pressure. The good thing about maker pattern fit, it forces everyone to play at a higher level, right. So if someone has a meet feature, we actually plan this since three years ago, but but it takes time to build it. But but but the fact that some tools, like web flow heavy, which have it makes makes everyone else also has have to have this peer pressure is what generates open source projects and things like that. To compete, you have to be good to the community, otherwise people who like you, and I think that people inherently wants to share, but it's never a high priority until we make it a priority. I think maker pad has these these, I would say responsibility to kind of force us all into being better community players like being more standard space, not letting people lock down. We chose a specific standard, we didn't choose to build a very custom spreadsheets to walk around because we feel like people should not be spreadsheets are pretty standard and pretty developed. And we should not force people to live inside a golden gate. I think that it's okay. In the beginning, these all these tools are popping up. But I would be very surprised that in five years to like air table and glide and as an all of the other players are still closed, we will be extremely open towards makeup ads and other communities and other ways to correct.

19:31Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And I think for me, it's one of the best ways to learn how to build that thing or do the thing. It's starting with something. It's not just starting from scratch necessarily because sometimes that's one of the biggest barriers and there's no code, it's bringing down those barriers of, okay, you weren't technical so you can build this. So here's the thing for you to do the thing that you want to do. But now like the barrier, almost gets moved. And then it's like, okay, okay, well, but I want to do sales stuff in this thing. So So okay, well, let's move you to this further point. And do it that way, I think Yeah.

20:13Yeah. Well, I think back to your previous point, I think you also need curiosity. If you have zero curiosity, if people don't like reading books, and if people don't like riding bicycles, then they won't like local, they won't like local tools, like you need some sort of excitement over experimenting. And, and this stability in instability, right, like the bicycle is the best example like a bicycle centrifugal force, and you need to keep moving, for for for you to actually enjoy it. And for it to actually get some, some, some, some some value out of it. We are very fortunate that in a spreadsheet, everything is about sales, everything's very standardized, but every little elements you put in that this is a cell. And so in actually, in our templates, we can also have steps, we can actually deconstruct anything which you build, and actually do go buy, sell, buy, sell, and I say, this is the first sell. Now you do that I don't sell any other cells. So the fact that we have this pretty big standardization helps us even quit as intermediaries that there is a template, but we can also go step by step. But in the end, you can ever remove the first the first friction, which is people need to be somewhat curious about what they're doing about their processes and about how they're trying to be better, more scalable, faster, cheaper.

21:38Yeah, for sure. I think also, it's been really interesting to watch tools like web flow, and air table, specifically those because I've spoken to them quite a lot that they're like building a tool which can be used for so many things. And previously in the startup space, it's more like, either solve a specific thing for a specific person. But some of these tools by nature are very broad in what they could be useful. And then it actually comes down to the community, like people in Macomb Community and other community platforms have no code. They're the ones who are pushing boundaries and showing almost showing the tools themselves. Oh, by the way, you can build this thing there was the example is like someone built in the Squarespace editor or something within web flow is one of those examples that Vlad was like, holy shit, this is crazy that someone's done that, but it's like, yeah, you're using the tools to push how you wanted it to do. And I think that's what excited me about no code in the early days was always trying to launch other ideas, but just like putting these things together, and people were like, how did you do that? Like, that's not supposed to be how you use Zapier or whatever it was. So it's funny how

22:58it's a very, very common theme, right? So we also started with, and the use cases that fit fits more natural into dashdash are, are things related to data enrichment, and finding like, you can get an end to end regeneration flow, going pretty, pretty fast. But then some people just start connecting different things. And frankly, there's one company that that actually draws these flags on Google Maps and searches on location. And then they find offices there. And then they see their internal back end system to market their solution to them automatically. And so people do torture tools by default, I think that this is the good thing. And actually one of the story stories, which we keep hearing about building tools in general, not only limited to, to to no code, but also including in design and and all of these other tools is that they sometimes take a while to really to really gather momentum, especially because people are doing many different things. So people tell us, many users and including some investors that they had air table on for for a couple of years. And they use it sporadically until, at some point someone in the company found an amazing use case, and then everyone piled on. And then it started becoming a thing. And this is super exciting. Because it doesn't mean that that we have to earn individual use cases, we have to solve people's problems, and many people, many people, many people until you really start seeing patterns. And then air table, man found this amazing area where they're kind of like this super CMS super simple, including API and you don't have to go into contentful and send things up and it takes you hours. I mean, maybe two minutes, right in the time the squeezing of the timeframes is is the interesting factor here.

24:58Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I think, yes, trying to find those curious, no code champions who help sort of shape some of that stuff, and also do some of the product marketing for you. So let's talk about some of the use cases of dashdash then like, what are some of you talked about? You touched on there with a few of the stories? What are some? Like? What are some of the patterns you're already seeing? I know, certainly. But are there sort of situations in sales marketing, or one of the one of the use cases that you're seeing a lot? Yeah,

25:31yeah, so so I'll just tell three, three broad things, which we've seen. So the first one, it's a very common thing that if you have an end to end lead generation flow, so people find companies, for example, on crunchbase, using our fantasy type, people search crunchbase, search complex space, and, and then you find the people on LinkedIn for those companies. And then you add those those lists of people and companies into your CRM into pipedrive. or something, this is pretty common, and produce that search. And something else that you can get away with alerts. spreadsheets, we're always used to dashboards and things but but we definitely can, can ultimately take it further example, having Google and ladies plus slack alerts for weekly reports that this is something that people use quite a lot. It's very useful, people love it. And then the third type of thing is much more automation basics people really use get written posts, to interact with their custom API's and do things like like looking areas in the geometrical area, looking for places, companies and banks and consultancy companies, then feeding those into your into your own back end system to sail from this super big online restaurant in Madrid. wasn't easy, zombies. Very, very profitable for ourselves.

27:12Awesome. So who who are the from those use cases? I guess? What are the what are the typical customers that you see? Is it like the individuals within tech companies? Or like you said, there's a restaurant in Madrid, one of the use like, Yeah, well, how do you? How have you identified the customers? Or have you? Is that just being like a pull a bit more from people looking for these solutions?

27:39Yeah, well, usually, we people find us before we find that we're just very fortunate. We are extremely grateful for this. So we have a waiting list of many thousands of people waiting to get into that. I think that that that comes with being a spreadsheet and mobile tool, especially the chat Generally, the way we identify them, they are really maker people at heart, they've always been. So operations managers, marketing managers, but people who really don't get satisfied with stuff school, I'm already in some form. We're known to be the sprach exporters of their companies and people who already have something built in Zapier for themselves or IFTTT in their own personal life. So people who act things for a living people who are the first to know the people who are the first in their cohort of friends to buy Mac's, and to build their own websites and to have their own blogs, this this kind of behavior is the precursor, I think of people finding us in particular, probably also other tools. Think you would find that our users are very much like the users of alpha, an air table or, or glide or something else like that.

29:07Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's interesting, because a lot of our customers find us. We don't do any, like outreach of sorts, like, obviously, we doing this podcast, and I tweet sometimes. So it is, I think, yeah, curious people tend to attract other curious people who, like you just talk about these things. And people say, I managed to do this thing in this tool or discovered this thing. And it's an interesting little flywheel in of itself.

29:42What do you think?

29:45Is the future for sort of the no code companies in the ecosystem in general, do you think there's going to be more of a vertical push where people sort of stay in one tool, and that's just like they have that one. That one thing Do you think this becomes more of a stack based ecosystem where people bring in dashdash and Zapier and air table and web flow as part of building a company and that is maybe more popular or especially in the early days of a company, maybe people start?

30:19Well, first on your previous comment on social, we are very envious of you guys get online, and Amelie something that I think all tools and everyone should try to have, I think you guys do a terrific job you get you guys deserve, but I'm just gonna put it out there, we are absolutely empty. Thanks a lot. But in regards to how we see the future, I think that we as with everything, there's going to be a mix, there's going to be players who do it all, I'm willing to bet on what you this massive scale and to everything kind of like Apple and Google, the phone and the operating system everything. And then there's going to be more specialized people who build only components or apps, there's going to be super large, single factor, like Facebook only works on social. And there's going to be different types of things. So I believe that there will be tools which leave in your dock. And and and certainly was our conscious choice to build a spreadsheet, which is, which fulfills the current functions as well as the more novel, no cold kind and be able to export its website, etc. I think we are to that we want we want to live inside user stocks, we want to earn that trust that respect. And so I think there will be a handful of those tools that always leaves inside your dock, there's going to be some tools which run in the background, which you go into just to check things and to and to change them. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that there's going to be tools which are probably a mixture of those. So I don't think that we'll see a formula. Obviously the after a few big players are established all that's going to be left for a while before the next revolution is going to be like individual components. So I'm pretty sure that there's going to be a Zapier which is focused on humans analogies, and, and and some builds components just for Zapier, perhaps like it's just like you have the dark kitchens, which are just building burgers or briefs, I think you will have people building very specific components for these platforms. But But there will be a few platforms, I think that spreadsheets will always be there. And people will always need a spreadsheet. And definitely we hope that that such plays a part in that feature. I think people will need databases. And so air table and the likes of our table will exist, they will obviously move upstream and try to have a full stack solution that they currently do not have an external internal layer of presentation publishing solution. So I'm pretty sure that that's on that. Their roadmap, other tools like flatten, probably try to integrate backwards into the back end, having more data type database like features, I think for a while is going to be fun, everyone's going to have cash in the building awesome products, I think that there will be centralization. And as some people start claiming spaces, the mind span will be too big to overcome. At some point is air table really Congress databases online for regular people to be super hard for the next guy to really create, then there will maybe be two or three. And it's funny how Microsoft has access, right, which is air table 20 years ago, more or even more. And, and, and, and, and again, there were there were subjects to be disrupted. And and I guess it will happen with the ultimate disrupter sooner or later. But I think that there will be again, summarize tools within the tools that you visit, frequently, there's going to be two or three or four integrators in the classrooms that have full stack. And the rest is going to be massive and very profitable pieces of building components to that. And those people are going to be the ones that have the least risk right? There are going to be no code people themselves. You can build an API yourself or or just recombine an API to find something very specific. For example, you have a company give me a URL, and I'll give you the number of employees the email and phone number of the CEO. And then the last round. While we have French fades and tomatoes to that there is no block which you cannot do. magically add too many of these tools in a very prototype spot, someone will create it and someone will achieve scale we that block. Yeah, for sure. I think it's gonna be I think it's gonna be a brilliant cutthroat business. With, with, with, with we've obviously the consumer the end user being the winner there.

35:23Yeah, I think yeah, it's funny that I build Makerpad on web flow is still built on web flow. But initially I used a link to a type form to take a payment, and then send them back to like a password protected page. But then member stack came along as like a web flow first membership stuff. So then that was like purely about that. So a lot of people when they think of web flow and memberships, they automatically think of member stack because that's the sort of first and foremost thing that people are telling to us at the moment. Then there's someone called Chris who built jet boost. And he's like, added, does everyone on the web flow wish list that asking about multi filters, so he like just built that component. But he said, just picking off the things on the wish list that people don't like big companies can't get to? Well, they can't prioritize over other big features. And that's just been a thing that has forever lived in. in tech, right? People looking at roadmaps of public companies or something and building these smaller components that thousands of their users want to have.

36:34Yes, yes. The fact that we actually built a spreadsheet from scratch is that we don't believe that Microsoft or Google have the capacity to really rebuild a spreadsheet from scratch and faculties business like this, like how likely is it that they're going to add API's and services and kind of like a Netflix for for data inside of zero percent chance that they're busy with cloud fights, and fending off apple and Amazon and everyone's like fighting for the level and they kind of like look at probably okay was like, okay, that's fun, but it's not a business for us. At least not yet. And so it gives us an opportunity to to fight that fight, and eventually become be and have a seat at the table of disrupting the consoles. dissolved doesn't matter for anything, I guess, if, if we don't solve people's problems, right, and, and right now, you guys are probably affecting the lives of many dozens of thousands of people. And and but these estimates millions and millions of people, right. And if it doesn't reach millions of people, then no code will be kind of like this new flavor of rapid, rapid application development that already existed before. But yes, we all think and certainly we believe that now is the time where technology has evolved to place and API has standardized communications. And computing power is cheap enough that the solutions are there to be built that allow everyone to do this kind of stuff.

38:10Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I totally agree. With with the big players I know recently, actually was acquired by Google, do you think we're gonna see, like you said, there's gonna be more full stack things, you think we're gonna be seeing a lot more acquisitions, and people buying up smaller, smaller nocode companies in the next sort of 12 months?

38:32And I think so. They're definitely interested. We've we've been approached by I think all the big name brands out there, just just to know what they're doing. Capital position offers, were very early, but it feels like Franco for Google, I have no idea, no insight into how that happened. But clearly, it seems like their app builder was fairly relative said metrics. And they looked at it and said, Okay, this is simpler, faster, and we can acquire it for nothing. Our our stock market valuation is climb 20 times the price to buy these by mistake them so they're doing a better job than we are gonna replace our offering. I think some players are so sweet because they want to have something in this space. I think some players really believe pouring resources, right? Like, you see, Salesforce has been for a long time invest in companies and buying companies that allow you to interconnect you from corporate. It's not necessarily no code, but it's slowly walking towards that, towards that end of the day started with with Salesforce CRM, a relatively boring area, and they have everything that you can plug into it, you have analytics, you have marketing you they have spreadsheets, twite interfaces and whatnot, and so on. They really believe in the in the ecosystem of connecting tools and lighting. Salespeople sell more for that super large vertical. But I think we will see acquisitions. I'm not sure if if, if air table and workflow are interested in that, I think that they still, they can still grow a lot and become a lot more important. I certainly hope so. Yeah. Because otherwise we will see just a fighting event and things won't, won't become standards, they won't become part of the community, they will just be in some other walled garden. What do you need just one log in to access all of Googles or apples or Amazon stores? And is not good? For people?

40:44Yeah, no. Okay. Um, yeah, well, I really appreciate you coming on. It's been a great, like, really fun conversation. First time we've spoken, which has been great. Hopefully, we'll be the last. Is there anything you wanted to talk about? Or? If not, you can just sort of let people know where to find you. And, and

41:06well, already people can find us at best match.com is best bet.com. And like describing the equal sign, and, and also on twitter.com, slash dashdash, and you can join our waiting list, we will be be killing the waiting list and opening the gates over the next couple of months, with many, many exciting things. But but just overall in terms of topics to talk to. I'm just curious at how do you think that you will come back to the previous topic? The topic we spoke in minutes ago of how do you see the standardization and the creation of interplay? Because Because every player now has API's. And so API's are way of connecting things. But it's not necessarily choice, right? Like if you build something very complex on a table, like how well can you export it to some other systems? I've seen yesterday, someone creating something of like, SQL to a table or a table, like a log pole, with some diagrams. But do you see that this is important, first, that we have this kind of interplay? And what do you see the part of speaker padding back?

42:25Yeah, I think there's gonna be a huge space where we need engineers and developers to build tools to help us, like, extend our work on nocode tools. So yeah, like when people start hitting the limits of air table, whether that's the record limit, or whether it's the capability limit, there needs to be like a way to transition over these things and scale it a different way. And I think at the moment, lots of no code tools or people building with no code on there yet. So it's maybe not been a high priority, but we're definitely going to be looking at like, who are people going to be able to build these types of things. So we think we think it's really important, and yeah, always try to keep your eyes open for that. And I think we will start seeing some tools like that soon.

43:20Awesome. Awesome. Well, those. Thank you very much for the invitation. Yeah. We'll be talking soon for

43:28sure. Yeah, for sure. I'll let you know when that when it's coming out. Thanks a lot. Thanks.

43:34Thanks so much for listening. You can find us online at makerpad.co or on Twitter at makerpad. We'd love to hear if you enjoyed this episode, and what we should do next.