Moritz is a tech entrepreneur with deep knowledge B2B SaaS.

Right now, Moritz is in the midst of starting his fourth startup Refiner, a customer survey tool.

During the last four years, Moritz successfully bootstrapped two startups (Mailparser and Docparser) from zero to acquisition.

In this episode, Ben and Moritz discuss:

• The process for content marketing to more technical creators.
• Extracting data from documents and email
• Automating methods for learning from leads in customer acquisition

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Moritz

Thu, 6/11 1:22PM • 46:03

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

product, parser, people, data, refiner, called, emails, user, customer, survey, question, build, invoices, running, thought, automate, doc, extracting, business, documents

SPEAKERS

Ben Tossell, Moritz

Ben Tossell  00:02

Okay, today on this show, we have Moritz, who was the founder of a company called male parser dot parser. And now a company called refiner, where it's one to the show.

Moritz  00:14

Hey, Ben, thanks for having me.

Ben Tossell  00:17

Yeah, appreciate you coming on. Can you look at a few products in there and just sort of walk us through which, which came first and what what each of them were

00:28

gonna be great.

Moritz  00:30

Yeah, totally. So, maple syrup was the first product that bootstrapped it's a SaaS product. It's basically a data extraction tool. So I started a parser, five years ago, basically, as a side project was I was fiddling around with the idea to extract data from emails, and after a while, I had some kind of MVP product running which apparently covered Nice business case, which is extracting data from recurring emails. And so I kept this as a side product side project for a couple of months or years, actually, until the point where it just grew and grew and grew. And then I went full time on it. And so this was 2015 that I went full time on a parser. I kept on growing this product for like one or one and a half years. And during that time, I had more and more customers asking for additional features, for example, extracting data from documents. So imagine PDF documents, like invoices, purchase orders, and so on. And so I took the decision to create a second product, which then was called log parser. And then yeah, for like two years, I was basically running two products in parallel one which was called made parser, which was emailed for Email parsing and then the other one, which was called doc parser for document parsing. And yeah, both products exist today. They're thriving and growing. However, I was lucky enough to be able to sell them one and a half years ago, like may pass first a couple of years ago, and then a little bit later with parser to the same buyer, they're called shorts of capital. And yeah, then I took a short break and started my new venture, which is called refiner.io, which I just launched a couple of weeks ago, and refined a day or so customer survey tool built for SAS membership sites and e commerce, specifically so I can, if you like, talk a little bit more about this later. But basically, it's like little pop up widgets, which you can show on your website for example, like you know them from NPS witches, but you can ask any kind of question And then later on automate actions, depending on the answers given by the user.

Ben Tossell  03:06

Awesome. So I think it's fair to say that you've been busy. Over the years. How what when was male parser? When did that start again?

Moritz  03:16

Yeah, so it started as a side project around the beginning of 2014 and 2000 to 2015. It was it was becoming a full time job.

Ben Tossell  03:28

Okay. Well, I mean, that's not that's not that long. It's just been like five years, and there's three. There's three companies in there. Not a lot of people would probably do that. I think, where did the original? Where did Mel pass as a side project come from? How did you figure out that there was a pain there that you could solve?

Moritz  03:48

Yeah, so that's really going against all the wisdom which is out there, which is like Okay, first of all the date entered the year and then make custom interviews and so on and so on before you start coding. I am an engineer by trade. So I always liked coding. And I just thought the idea to get

04:09

data

Moritz  04:10

out of image automatically would be like something interesting to build. And it was actually after I launched an MVP on Hacker News, I did a show Hacker News post that it became really clear that there's actually a business case and a pain point to solve, which is, for example, there are like many people receiving hundreds of emails the same type of emails every day. For example, they are sent from a form on a website, a contact form on the website, and each time a user or visitor fills out his contact form, it sends an email to you, and this email has always the same structure. And inside this email, there's data which you need for your business. This could be an inquiry for from a new customer. Or it could be just something like, well, the new listing on our website, and so on and so on. And so it became clear that people are actually wanting to get this information out automatically. And then use this information, either by just putting it inside an Excel or using API's like web hooks and so on or save here to automate things afterwards.

Ben Tossell  05:39

Awesome. So you sort of found that from your initial product, there was an audience from a post on Hacker News and things like that, and, and what you were building was valuable, right?

Moritz  05:51

Yeah, I mean, one thing which was really lucky is that when I posted that on Hacker News, the founders of say, pure.com Which dialing in and save Yeah, at that point was already taking off somehow, but was still kind of small. And basically, they told me Oh, look, we have people actually asking for this kind of functionality. And wouldn't be it would be really cool if you had if we had made pass on our platform. And so the first paying customers and the first traction came through Savior and form a parser. Really along the way, I was basically riding the wave this upcoming wave of save here as automation platform, and me being some kind of plugin or very, like a tool inside the Savior platform which could, which you could use to parse emails. Later on Xavier, publish their own email parser but with we still saw plenty of customers Coming from savior because ours was more performant and was able to handle flexible line items in invoices like recurring data. It was just a little bit more robust and they're

Ben Tossell  07:13

awesome. So yeah you their very own early on with Zapier, what how many? How many apps do you think Zapier had on when you went on there with mail? parser? Uh,

Moritz  07:25

I would say less than 100

07:27

Wow. So I think

Ben Tossell  07:28

they have, like 2000. Right. So that's a question ago.

07:35

And yeah, when did did

Ben Tossell  07:38

so you you built the integration for Zapier, and then they listed you and and then sort of just leads came through that way. Is that right?

Moritz  07:47

Yeah. And then there was also and then yeah, for sure. It's always the same. If you build your product or your business based on the platform, you'll become pretty dependent. So really early on. I also To find other acquisition channels, and for May Parson capacitors to products content was working pretty good for me because like blog articles print technical blog articles, because the my users were, let's say at least tech savvy, they were not developers but tech savvy. And so they were looking for specific terms in at Google, for example, how to extract data from documents to XML, like a really long phrase. And so we made sure that we have the right content on our blog and our website so that we could get this traffic. And then we also branched out to other automation platforms like Microsoft Flow. And I think the guys today they're also working on getting the power center parser listed on more no code and automation platforms.

Ben Tossell  08:58

Awesome and You said about the content marketing. I know we've had a conversation about content marketing previously, as you're one of the mentors in this capsule. So, I mean, I always struggle with content marketing advice of like, Oh, yeah, content marketing work for us, we found a phrase. So we did like blogging just I think it's mostly down to because I'm an awful writer, like they don't know where to start. To me, it seems like one of those really difficult things to put together. But some people is the complete opposite. Like, the easiest thing, think of what was the old process of? Okay, that's fine. How do you find this phrase? And then how do you say, Okay, well, let's write 500 1000 words, with whatever else to actually nail that piece. And then I suppose How long? How long is it until you start seeing, seeing that come back round to people actually finding you?

Moritz  09:57

Yeah, that's a good question. First, I think I need to make clear that, um, what we did was basically try to respond to people who already knew that they needed our solution or our this kind of solution. So basically, we were not able to raise awareness or at least I, when I was running those two applications, I wasn't able to raise awareness amongst people who, who didn't know about this kind of technology before. So we never did content in the form of really like top of the funnel content where we're speaking about very broad topics, which then could lead to interest in our brand, and then they would discover our solution when what we did in terms of content was really specific, out like articles about very specific technical problems. For example, Doc parser Use a technology which is called OCR, optical character recognition. It's very technical. And so we basically made an article about how to what is OCR for so how to improve the accuracy of OCR and so on and so on. So we were really speaking to people who had a specific problem, technical problem. And then we could basically leverage a little bit also my engineering experience from from building this product because I was looking into OCR. So I was teaching myself this and so I could share this knowledge as well. And it was knowledge which was interesting for our audience. Or to give you another concrete example for May parser. May parser, was about extracting data from emails. And one article, which was working pretty good for us was how to mess forward emails from Gmail to another email accounts. So it had nothing that really it was not really about extracting data from emails, but it was talking to the same kind of user because we were talking to people who apparently have a lot of emails that they need to mess for them automatically somewhere else. And so yeah, we tried to to stay very concrete down the bottom of the funnel like people more than purchase intent. That was the first goal responding to people who already knew what they were looking for. And then also trying to speak a little bit about more generic topics but which were really close to what we are doing.

Ben Tossell  12:43

Awesome. How long was it into male pass away you decided your full time and then how much was it just you at that point and then you just Then did you hire a team? Yeah,

Moritz  12:56

exactly. So I went full time on on a possible When it made 5000 MRR there was basically at the point where I couldn't ignore it anymore. You know what now when I started it, I first started as a side project and I thought, okay, it could become a little profitable, passive income type of business, then it became bigger and bigger and it just continued. And then it was at a point where I said, Okay, I really want to know how far I can go with it, if I go full time on it. And so that was when it made five K. And really quickly afterwards, I was hiring somebody who helped me for the support. And so basically, even though it made 5000 Mr. In the beginning, it was not profitable in the sense that I could pay myself a decent salary. I mean, I live in Paris. It's very expensive city. It's with it. Doesn't know like yeah, After paying taxes, and so on 5000 is just not enough to read from it. And so my first hire was somebody on support, because it was a very, as I said, a very technical product. And we were doing a lot of hand holding for the new customers, trying to explain them how things are going, we always try to. Well, we didn't want to offer a done for you service in the beginning. We also didn't want to build for service, which we provided them. But we also wanted to make sure that they really get the most out of the app. So we offered to help them with the setup and so on. And yeah, hiring somebody on support was good in the sense that it was immediately giving me back time. So my colleague Joshua, he was he was working in technical support before he was up to speed in in one week, and it was just taking a lot of stress of my back. And then the next day hires were Tom for marketing who basically took over the entire marketing and brought this thing. Take, push it through the roof, let's say like this. And I myself stayed on the product and product development and so on. Awesome.

Ben Tossell  15:22

And when when was it in this journey then the dot path started, like coming into Could I assume most people would think, Oh, I can see that lots of people are trying to do document passing here, like, and so we should just add this as a separate piece of the current business. What was the thought process of? Okay, I'm going to start another company doing the same, like, I guess it's setup. A lot of the setup was the same. We'll set up another company. We'll put on Zapier and we'll do a lot of content marketing around these key key search. Is that? Is that how it went?

Moritz  16:02

Yeah, so this is definitely you. I mean, definitely, you're right, like the normal reaction would be okay, we're just adding document parsing capabilities to a parser. And this is what I did in the beginning. So basically, I added the possibility to extract data from email attachments. And this was working pretty good. And as I said, there was more and more demand. And then it was basically becoming clear that this is actually a much bigger market, because getting data out of email is one thing. Some, like this is interesting for people who are working online, mainly who are having an online based business, but getting data out of documents, for example, invoices or purchase orders, or this concept. This is basically interesting for all kinds of businesses, also offline businesses. And so when it became clear that this is at least an opportunity have at least the same size or even bigger, I thought it would make sense to just separate those two into products. And one reason for that was also to just make it more easy in terms of marketing, because I felt like I'm already have had a difficult time to tell people what made us like there were so many different use cases, so many things you could do with it. And then telling people look, oh, it's an app, which is called a parser. But you can also to documents that this, this would have meant I would need to rebrand a thing like, call it universal powers or whatever. And then I thought, okay, but this then has also implications in the product. Because even though it sounds like the same thing, it's still different from a technical point of view to get data out of an email, as it is, for example, to get data from scanned document because, for example, for a scanned document, you need to do OCR and all this kind of stuff, which is just so I was afraid of blowed in terms of marketing and also in terms of products, and I was thinking it would be nice to have two very specific, very small and easy to understand products, which to something like weather with a very limited scope, but they do it really good. And I think at the end is laid out pretty good because as it turned out, the use cases of email parsing are actually quite different than the use cases for document parsing. For example, people who are using may parser are mainly extracting contact data, or often extract contact data like leads and all this kind of contact related information. While dark powers is playing much stronger in the end, the whole purchasing cycle from orders and new order coming in, we will need to put this order in the earpiece system and then there's a new invoice coming in and we want to get data out of this invoice and so on. So it's two different formats, but also two different use cases. So in the end, yeah, makes sense to to just separate them into products.

Ben Tossell  19:27

Makes sense? Was it actually like legally set up as one company or is it was it two completely separate things?

Moritz  19:35

No, it was to it was one company with two products. Okay, okay.

19:43

Yes, interesting. And then how,

Ben Tossell  19:46

how are you running two companies in conjunction with each other? And obviously, we just touched on this. I've been seminar pieces. So I'd be approaching things like that with this seminar. How How was it running to companies that were obviously solving a problem for their customers, I think people struggle with, with trying to just get one company to do that thing. So yeah, it's interesting to see that you managed to do too. And how long were they sort of crossing over is to, like, fully running companies.

Moritz  20:21

It was, let's say it was two products in the same company was the same team. And we split our time on two products. So this made it much easier. It was not that I needed to manage two different teams. And also from the technical point of view, as I was developing this, it was more or less the same tech team working on the same products. And in the beginning, those two products were pretty similar. And but then, over time, they involved each in their own direction. And but yeah, it was actually To be honest, pretty stressful and took point where I thought okay I cannot do this anymore with this small setup. So to really take this whole enterprise form board I would need to massively hire actually on at least hire like like double the team size and then this would maybe also imply that there would need to take an investment to actually have the runway to to pay the people and so basically one year in I was asking myself these questions like, okay, like right now it's pretty stressful. How can this continue? And so one option then was for me to say okay, may parser is basically finished in terms of product I mean, never finished but it was like the, the main features one were in place and was was had its market in its running was running smoothly. And then on the other side, there was talk parser, which needed a lot of work still like in terms of product marketing, and so on. So I thought, well, if there's maybe a possibility to sell main parser and focus with the current setup of the team members on doc parser. So basically stay small cash in on May parser. And then continue running our growing doc parser. And this was some kind of shower idea in the morning. And but it just made sense. And I actually, with a choice of capital, I found the buyer who was okay with that. And so we had some kind of handshake deal that I'll continue growing parser focus on duck parser when it makes sense for me to sell doc parser I would be able to sell it to them as well.

Ben Tossell  22:59

Okay, so it was Sort of like, okay, we'll have these, these pick this piece now. And then when you enter to give us the other piece and also take that.

Moritz  23:06

Yeah, because the buyer the shows of capital they are interested in is certain size of company for acquiring and dog paws wasn't there. So it wasn't that interesting for them at that point, but I was pretty sure that I can grow it to a point where it would become interesting to them.

23:26

Okay, cool. Awesome. And then

Ben Tossell  23:30

was, and then how long was it with doc pass? Did you get it to a point where then you you were ready to send it and then it was? You said, I think you said there was like a little break. And again, it was all within five years. How long

Moritz  23:46

was that that? Well, the the break was way too short. And there was actually a long transition transition time. I agreed with shorts of capital that I would continue running doc pass off. for, let's say a year just to bring it on a certain milestone. So basically the contract was based on milestones and stuff. And so I stayed with social capital for nearly a year actually. And but in the end, I was working less and less and less. So basically, I was transitioning out really smoothly, very slowly. And then yeah, well, the last month were pretty quiet for me. So I started looking into what could be next and so basically, it was more or less like, Oh, well, I mean, I, I want to do something anyway. I mean, I I like my work and you know, like, also we have we are very, we are settled here in Paris. We have kids, my wife is working. So we were not in the spirit of Okay, let's just travel the world and not work for one year. So I thought, Okay, I need to work on something so why not just look into the next idea, and then refiners started very slowly. And guys, I mean, they accelerated in the last in the end of 2019 silver became more and more also full time job so the break was not real long break it was just a couple of weeks of keeping it slow being bored all that and then looking into new a new idea.

Ben Tossell  25:27

Yeah, I mean some people have a vacation that is longer than that. Yeah. So what how did he then get the the idea or the beginnings of the idea that would be refiner. Where did that come from?

Moritz  25:48

That came actually directly from drawing the parser. So we could possibly have a situation that we had quite a lot of stuff. signups every day. So it was basically a good situation to be in. But let's say it was north of Northern 50 signups per day, actually much more. But anyway, it was too much to just go through them all every time somebody actually created an account. And it was a very mixed bag of signups. So there were people in there who just wanted to check out what duck parser is and have a look. But in those signups were also people from fortune 500 companies who had an urgent needs and who were ready to purchase. And so basically we wanted to qualify those signups. We just wanted to know more about who they are. And so we thought about adding questions to the signup process. But then we figured that some of the questions we want to know they are too complicated to answer it. During signup, for example, we wanted to know, how many documents Do you want to want to process per month? Or what type of documents Do you want to process? And this question is very difficult to answer if you don't know the products yet. So what we figured out it was, was much better to just give people some time to explore the product. Look around Look what what they could do with it, and then ask those questions. So we what we wanted to do is just launch some kind of one click surveys, like really, just something really small inside the app for you could then ask the question saying, hey, how many documents Do you want to process per month? There are four choices, the user would click one, and that's it. We would say things are good. And then in the background, we would be able to say, Okay, this guy hands up like this. So he's apparently a very interesting lead. Maybe we want to Reach out to him. Or maybe we want to double check if he's already successful, or what's missing, and so on. So it was growing out of often, of our own need. And then I got more and more into this topic about what could be done with little what I call micro surveys, like on page service, little pop ups, which pop up in the corner of a website. And I figured that that most competitors out there were about doing product research, for example, just trying to check out what kind of feature you want to your users want or are getting more or less statistics from your users. But what I wanted to do is basically take the answers a user gives me and then automate things based on their answers. For example, to give you concrete case, you you're running an NPS survey inside asking, how likely are you to recommend our app to a friend for no escape from zero to 10. And then if he if the user says, very likely, for example, nine or 10, then you would maybe trigger automatically an email to him saying, hey, thanks a lot for giving us a good rating. Would you be up to write a little testimonial on our for us on this on that platform, for example, kaptara.com or those review platforms? And so basically, looking at, for example, NPS surveys, not just as a tool to measure over time, how good you're doing, but also use it as a tool to automate actions for this user afterwards.

Ben Tossell  29:56

Oh, yeah, it's really interesting. So yeah, you could just have it That how likely you're going to recommend a friend. They say very likely you say, Okay, well recommend us that I give it to them there and say, whilst they're in that mindset of, yeah, I'm very happy with this product, I would recommend it and then having something automatically come in like that. And those are there like templates or workflows. Are there some sort of standardized templates that you see people using often that are? Okay, when this thing happens, then we do this?

Moritz  30:30

Yeah, this is definitely something I need to work on a little bit more. I'm already having a section on our website, which is called playbooks and I want to add many, many more to them. So one of the most popular is definitely the NPS survey. Where would where you would ask how satisfied are you with our product or how likely are you to recommend it and then, basically, request or ask for testimonial or review afterwards. But then there are also things like we did in doc parser, where you would ask lead qualification questions like, how big is your team? What's your job role? And so how urgently Do you need a solution, and so on and so on. And this data could then flow into your CRM, if you're using one, to then give you an alert each time somebody answers like this, or that. That's a very popular use case. And then there are the more traditional use cases of just trying to understand who your users are, by asking them questions and doing statistics later on. Like, okay, 30% of our users, our agencies have less than five people for example.

Ben Tossell  31:50

Yeah. So with those two, someone need to be technical to be able to set up the automations or is it like Pretty simple. Yeah. And is there? Yeah. Is there any like integrations pulling through to Google sheets or something like that?

Moritz  32:10

Yeah, definitely. Like all my products. I actually. I would, as I say, I think for my products, they are for tech savvy people, but definitely not for developers. So with maples, Doc parser. And with refiner, it's basically Yeah, you can set it up without any code. Everybody can set it up. And then there's a very strong focus on automation. And so basically, in refiner, whenever a survey was filled out, you can launch, for example, a web hook or you can send the data to save here, or you can send it to segment and I'm working on more Additional integrations. And for example, Google Sheets is on my to do list as well. And, but alone, the fact that you can send it to save here allows you to do all kinds of things like sending emails or adding the data to your CRM system and so on. So, basically, I mean, it's maybe not obvious on the first look, but even all those three products have broken the same kind of way. There's some data coming in. And then something's done with this data. And mostly, this data is just sent somewhere else. So I feel like refiners in the way. They get they get you set it up once and then you don't need to log in every day. It's more more about you set it at once and you let it run, and each time a customer answers the question, it will automatically trigger a workflow. somewhere else.

Ben Tossell  34:01

Yeah, that's awesome. I can definitely, my mind's going a bit crazy of things we could implement now with, with that sort of that sort of stuff. Because I mean, people have an actual thing. At the moment, we have a wait list. So people fill out the form, I just goes into an ad table. And then I'll do some filters or look at it. And then like, we've got we've got some data there and then we'll follow up and ask them certain things and all of these things could be automated, but not it doesn't have to be that it could be whilst they're browsing the site, right? Or if they're looking around and and finding out some things different or tutorials or something and then you have something different that's, I was just like, would you like to learn how to build this lesson type stuff. And then you can send them a sneak peek of that video or something. Yeah, mystery.

Moritz  34:56

That was also a very I forgot to mention that actually, for doc parser, this was the use case was okay, we want to identify good leads, we want to identify big accounts. So this was one thing about it. But also, the other question we were asking was, what type of documents Do you want to process? And then based on this answer, we were sending out trip campaigns to them with a specific content tailored to them because we knew these guys are using our app for this in this use case. And so we have content on that. And then we were just sending out through customer Yo, drip campaigns to them are making sure they are receiving exactly the content they need and not content they are not interested in. So this whole segmentation and in like, it goes a little bit into personalization, and just making sure that the experience for your user is tailored to them and as an entry point. We have those refiner micro surveys which pop up at the exact right moment, asking one or two very, very simple questions. And then based on this data, you can improve the experience of your user.

36:14

That's awesome. It seems like

Ben Tossell  36:19

as much as you said, the first with male pastor, you sort of you didn't do the usual customer interviews and whatever sort of the standard startup playbook is. It seems like a few of these are the three companies that you've now built, all have sort of very similar playbooks is that thinking that that's almost like the type of company you'd like to build and is there Do you think there's there may be a path for refiner to do the same thing as what male parser parser did?

Moritz  36:55

I think you are right when it when you look at the type of product like all Three products are tools. So they're not platforms where you spend your day in it. It's more like a data tool. So you set it up. And it's an addition to your current workflow or platform. From a technical point of view, it's the same, they are answering to a specific needs. And even further even to go further. It's always to say there's data coming in the software is processing the data, and then the data is going out somewhere through integrations. So there's definitely that however, when it comes to marketing, I think and for refiner, just really still need to figure it out, to be honest, because as I said, my pots and pans were both very technical products. And we were speaking to people who had a very well defined problem and needed quick solution to that right now. And due for the content, it was pretty easy to come up with something. For refiner, I feel like I'm much more. I mean, there are hundreds of survey apps out there. And it's super noisy. So if I look in Google, for example, for survey, pop up surveys, it's just I mean, it'll take me years to climb up the rankings there. And so yeah, so I think, yeah, the playbook is the same for the technical point of view. But in terms of marketing, I really need to figure out so things and that's also interesting is a challenge and yeah, so yeah, but then let's see, I mean, I'm open to where things are going with refiner. I think, if possible, I would keep it self funded for a while. Just to Yeah, stay small and flexible. And then maybe join the next one. The writer program that on something like you did makeup hair, that would be interesting, but I think I will not go down the traditional route of this Go big or go home. And the goal is to build a company which resembles me and which is, which I like running and i'm i'm pretty sure I don't I would not enjoy running a 200 people startup would be much distress.

Ben Tossell  39:33

Yeah, I think potentially You and I both. I was just Yeah, I was thinking of like, perhaps. So before I go into the next question, what how many people are on the final team now? Is it just you? or?

Moritz  39:48

Yeah, I was working with two freelancers really early on. One who was helping me with a design and then Pablo, who basically took all over Marketing really early on because I thought there's a challenge in SEO there's, it's gonna be really tricky to to rank. So I wanted to put some resources into getting some domain authority in there really early on. However, there was a part I didn't talk about yet. And 2019 when I was working on refining, I got somehow derailed in a way I was basically not putting much focus on the service what I'm doing today but went into a thing, which is called lead scoring and product qualified leads and whatsoever like I got somehow off track, and I spent a lot of time and resources there. And so, around Christmas, I decided to stop doing that. Go back to what I actually wanted to do build a small, nice survey tool specific For us ecommerce and membership sites, and so right now I'm working alone on it. And I would definitely like to hire soon again, for marketing and product design, but I feel like guys say I want to stay close to as close as possible to the product for now as as I could and then be able to iterate really quickly. And once I feel like now it's, it's, it's scaling, then definitely I need to hire. I hope it's going to be very soon.

Ben Tossell  41:39

Yeah, awesome. I think there's Yeah, I mean, there's a ton of ways that, like I said, my brain started going crazy thinking of all the things that we could use vinyl for make a pad and there's definitely ways we can engage the community on figuring out some of these templates and seeing what wonderful things that I was with the no code audience Do you see any? Like, what have you seen of the no code space so far, because I said recently that you don't have to be a no code tool to be part of no code solution so refiner for me, or even doc parser, male parser. None of them would be sort of, quote unquote, no code tools, but they will definitely help with a non technical person being able to do something quite technical, or have some of these workflows and automations to do something that they would probably need technical skills for previously.

Moritz  42:36

Yeah, it's definitely like, for example, in dog parks result, first people who were automating internal workflows, for example, getting data out of invoices and so on, but then later on, we actually and this is what I think where you got where you would make a pet are getting more and more traction. It's like people building actually their business. around those tools, like they build a business with this kind of tools, they just don't use them to automate some little specific tasks but the entire business is built on it and for example it on dog parks, we had accountants who were parsing data from credit card statements to them analyze this data automatically to then suggest things to their clients. And so, today, but I see refiner in the no code movement is for example, if you are running a membership business, or if you are like for with gated content or like education, educational material things. You have like the anonymous visitors on your website, this is one thing Okay, you could survey them, but much, much more interesting is working with your actual existing customers. And for example, if they lock in five times, after the fifth lock in, you would ask them, Hey, do you want to do this and that? And if they answered yes, then you could suggest that maybe you can hop on a call with them and offer them other services to them. So right now, with refiner, I feel like there's a lot of value we can add for existing customer bases where you already have users but you want to upsell them or just get more info from them. And the way I understood it is like, no code movement with platforms like bubble. You can do more and more of those community back ends where you could leverage definitely refiner for

Ben Tossell  44:58

awesome Well, I'm looking forward to it. To get some more and put out to the community to see what what other people come up with. It's been great to have you on the show. Thanks for sharing your story. Where can people go and find out more about you and the products you're building?

Moritz  45:14

Yeah, thanks a lot Ben for having me. So yeah, if you are interested in refiner, that's refiner.io. And personally, I am most active on Twitter these days. It's m thousand er, that's MDA. You si n GA, er, where I mostly tweet about b2b SOS tech. Yeah. So So yeah, definitely follow me on twitter or just go to wi fi.io. Create an account. It's free. We have a freemium plan. And yeah, happy to hear from from your audience and whoever wants to speak with me.

Ben Tossell  45:56

Awesome. Well, yeah, thanks so much. We'll speak to you soon.

Moritz  46:00

Thank you. Good day.

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