Paula Alcalá is the COO and Co-founder of Palabra, an email automation platform that integrates with your existing tools to make advances email processes simple.

In this conversation we talk about:- How Palabra came to be- The evolution of the platform- Joining an accelerator- Transitioning from education to tech- What's missing in the no-code space- and much more.

We hope you enjoy this conversation with Paula Alcalá.

Pa, thanks so much for joining me and welcome to the Makerpad podcast. First off. [00:00:05] Thanks a lot. It's great to be here. [00:00:08] How have things been going? We first spoke with you guys a little while ago, but we have a demo, the tool. We did a nice workshop and I think there's a lot of people blown away by how easy it was to use, your particular product.[00:00:22] So let's start from the beginning before we get into that side of things. Why don't you introduce yourself and what you do and exactly what is Palabra as are, they'd be great. [00:00:32] Great. All right. is a bit different. It's going in a bit different direction from what we talked about, the last time. So I'm going to give a bit of background and then share our latest news.[00:00:45] Nice. [00:00:45]All I'm Pau, or Paula I'm from Argentina. I'm the co-founder of Palabra. I came from a education background and this is my. I came from actually an ed tech background. So this is my first time working in a product that's not related to education. pretty excited about that. my co-founder Karen, she's the one that developed the product and they, the first version, and now we're a team of five, including developers and a designer.[00:01:17]so pretty excited. Palabra actually, Started as a, as the solution for Karen's own problems. She was working as a CTO in a startup and had a lot of side projects as well, and wanted to handle like multiple conversations with multiple. success once and wasn't, like the tools that were on the market at the time were in, good enough for her.[00:01:43] So she created her own solution and then made it into a business in itself. So we started, focusing a lot of in, small projects, inside side projects or small businesses, to help them set up, email automation system. Quickly as possible. so we focused, we started a lot with the no-code community and was, we were blown away by the drive.[00:02:06] The no-code community has to develop new things and to learn and to iterate new ideas. so that's basically how we started, right now for the last couple of months, we were a part of an accelerator called lunch. and there, we, we obviously met a lot of investors, but we also built our strategy, and started w we found out that we really needed to talk a lot more to users or to prospect users or to people who were actually needing to automate a lot of emails, or to automate a lot of processes in their organizations.[00:02:44]From all these conversations with proud marketers with, founders makers, we found out that email automation wasn't enough, asset for as a solution for what they needed. They also needed to understand where their users were, what they were doing and how to get them moving. From, I dunno, from sign up to complete the trial or to try a specific, feature in their product, like to get users to value.[00:03:12]so we are, we'll doing email automation. but we added that big part, like this huge part of seeing where users are. so we're actually working right now on the new version of our product will, which will be, mid December, probably our first merchant. And then, in January, we'll probably make the big lunch.[00:03:34]so it's getting,  the, I think it's the first time I'm saying this in public. so it's breaking news. Amazing. [00:03:40] Cause you did have, something to do with, let's call it like funnel analytics to start with where you had so many emails out and you could figure out like, who's clicked, what, et cetera, you did have a version of that.[00:03:53] The first time I saw it. So you expanding on that so to [00:03:56] speak exactly. It was like a single if it was like a two-step funnel that you could think of emails, so you had. The first set of, of users who hadn't yet completed a certain action. And then when they did, and then we captured that event and created a sequence to get them moving through to the next step.[00:04:15]so yeah, were the triggers that we have right now would be part of the funnel, like having one after the other. but I think in terms of seeing how, how he, how emails or any communication impact on user actions, this gives them much better perspective and much more control over what users are doing and how to improve, our products for them.[00:04:40] Got [00:04:40] it. So you said you've been part of a launch accelerator. Was there, was that something which came up in conversations there, which you either overlooked or is it just something you completely unexpected, which was just like a clear indication to you that you had said, can I change tracks, let's speak.[00:05:00] So to speak. [00:05:02] I think there was not something in particular that made us like. Change the perspective. It was more like we started thinking about how to grow this project, like from a side project and pharma small, experiment to a company and to think forward, like to have that perspective of the future made us think about, If we were really solving a problem for businesses and for whom are we solving it?[00:05:29] Because if we're, if it's just part of a solution of a big problem or just. kind of solution to a small problem, then it's not enough to build a business around. So once we started like asking ourselves those questions, like who we're helping in our users or in the conversations that we were already having, what are the problems we're actually solving?[00:05:52] And we've made a few decisions, actually, we decided to move. towards user retention and engagement and not so much for the acquisition part, because that would be a completely different, solution like a completely different tool. and we worked, we were in the middle with triggers because you could use, collaborate actually right now you can use collaborate for lead generation to have a cold emails or to handle, Landing page conversions, but the new version of our analytics will be much more focused on engagement on what users are doing.[00:06:27] So it's actually much more focused on SAS businesses or software solutions. but yeah, launch meet us, make, meet us, ask ourselves those kinds of questions and that's, I think that's what got us to change. [00:06:44] Yeah, I think. Getting outside opinion can be like two sides of the coin, really, where you can have that critical feedback, which is sometimes a tough pill to swallow.[00:06:58]but also it's needed sometimes to stop. You're maybe going too far down the wrong path. So I guess, would it be fair to say that. If you, when you launched into the Nokia way to NOCO community, initially you got that first core group of users, which gave you the feedback, just validated the first version of the product.[00:07:20] And then was it the case where that kind of plateaued a bit, and then you'd start to like reassess where you were. Was that the case or was it still growing in terms of users? [00:07:30] Oh, it was still growing. the growth was small right now. last month we had 25 users. if you're looking month to month over month growth, it's huge because since we have so few users, like having a few more, the next month makes a lot of difference, but I would have said it's like the growth stop.[00:07:52] It's going at a pretty, like standard rate. But what we were actually thinking way ahead, like we weren't, we're trying to. Make the adjustments needed. So with Doug and ended up like, slowing down, and actually the no coders on our first, the first, batch of people would talk to it wasn't necessarily our users.[00:08:18]it wasn't actually that much different to the conversations we're having right now. I wouldn't say we moved from the no-code community. Like we didn't move away from the no-code community. We just expanded our vision. and we actually, we actually learned from the no-code community, how to expand because they were having, they are having, we are having the same problems that any other software solution is having.[00:08:43]in the, like in the, in essence, the problems are pretty similar. and I wanted to. To comment, something on what you said about how easy the product looks, how do product, the products right now and how simple the UI is? because that, I think that's one of our greatest strengths and that's something we really want to keep.[00:09:04]so that's why I say like in the essence, it's the same because it would for trying to find easy and simple solutions, we have to like, think of the core problem that people are having. [00:09:19] What was the toughest piece of feedback that you received from the launch accelerator? [00:09:28]there were plenty.[00:09:29] I don't know. I don't know where to choose from. I wouldn't say was feedback. Exactly. Like the first thing that, that investors, mentioned about what we were thinking is how are you planning and grow in this? it seems like a solution that companies will outgrow from, it works great for small projects or small businesses, but once companies start getting more, Like more traction and their user base starts like growing and they have to professionalize what they're doing.[00:09:58] Then they probably will grow out of your solution and start like going to, I don't know, Salesforce or something that gives them a more complex, I don't know, understanding of it, but yeah, what they're doing. And that was a big red flag for us because yeah, w we found that w what we were talking.[00:10:15] Almost exclusively with people with small projects. And once they grew that they would grow, it actually happened to us a few. We had a few users that started with our solution because it was an easy way to automate, it was, signups from a workflow page. But I think that happens, I think actually that happens to a lot of companies that are, in the no-code space.[00:10:38] Like some, it sometimes happens that products start with no code tools. But then build, solutions with code as a second version. So then people move out of what they were using at first. For example, if you're using an Arab table database, And you start growing a lot of users or want to make more complex use case you may want to, you may grow out of it.[00:11:02] I don't know if it may not happen in the future. I think that's what investors are thinking about right now. [00:11:10] Yeah, no, I think that is a fair comment. I think over time as tools get more sophisticated than that, won't be the case as the loans come close together. But yeah, definitely a fair comment.[00:11:23] Let's just switch gears for a second away from product. And how did you make. The transition from ad tech. You said you're working into Norco. That seems like a bit of a shift. How did that [00:11:35] happen? And it actually happens so slowly. I didn't realize it. Like the first time I came across the notion of no code.[00:11:43]I, it was like, that's what I am. That's what I do. I had, I did, I had to realize they had before, but I had used say Bureau. And Google sheets to fix almost all of my problems, where I used to work at a Argentinian company and we had online. we were teaching how to code actually online and every person that submitted a project for someone to review came into, say peer system that I had built with, with, I think.[00:12:13]it was a coworker that wasn't a coder himself. We just needed didn't know that was the name of what we were doing. but we were using st. Pier Typeform and Google sheets to handle every project that came for review. And then to handle every, we had, people who were sort of mentors, but owned review, reviewed projects.[00:12:35] So we send them to them automatically and then had a system for them to, to say that. And they were going to review that. And then for payment, it was a really complex, no code system. so I've been doing that ever since I started on it tech, and actually, I found my place in the NOCO community and that's what God me like really into everything, every conversation that's been going on.[00:13:01]that's why I probably. Stay here at blues for, the app probably for a long time. It's my essence self work. [00:13:10] Yes. I think that's actually a common thread that the no codes, the no-code space emerged just because there's already so many people doing different things and it was great. Kind of time where people said, Oh, okay.[00:13:23] Yeah, I do these things. I hiked together tools. I tied together processes and build out workflows, and now it has a name like that. It's awesome. How did you get to. The stage where you were using Zapier to automate things you from a technical background yourself or semi-technical or how would you describe your skillset?[00:13:43]that's a good question. I'm originally from a technical background in high school. I was, I had a heavy technical, education, but then, In college, I studied education sciences and was got really far away from the technical aspects of things. I wanted to understand like how people and societies and systems social systems worked.[00:14:08]but right after college, actually, as soon as I, as I stopped, I sat and did my studies. I started working in tech and then, so my. Technical skillsets started building from there. I had to learn what, what development meant. and I think from, it wasn't my main goal, but I ended up understanding a lot of things about software while working in that tech, because I was training people to teach, how to code.[00:14:40]People may be mostly like most of my teammates had to explain to me what they were trying to teach. So I learned a lot that w it was like three years. When are where I learned, I wouldn't say, I don't know how to code exactly. I wouldn't be able to write a line and a line of code, but yet, but I understand how software systems work.[00:15:03]so I can make people think that I know how to code, and that comes pretty handy sometimes. [00:15:09] Yeah, I completely agree. I did a coding boot camp a number of years ago because I was from like a product management background. So I took a coding boot camp, not because I wanted to be a developer, but because I wanted to understand or be able to read and write a little bit of code if needed, just to know how to communicate with developers who were writing the code.[00:15:34] So just understand. The either simplicity or complexity of building out features, just so you can communicate on a similar level, not necessarily become a developer. So thought even though I was absolutely abysmal at coding, I could then understand it a bit better. So yeah, I found that actually quite useful.[00:15:55] Yeah, same here. at the beginning of every conversation I was having in terms of, we were, as I said, a tech and I was like, I found a lot of things that could be improved in our software, like a feedback or something related to analytics on how people interact with the software, but I didn't really have an understanding of what was possible and what was not.[00:16:17] even if my, like my main goal was to improve from the educational aspects. I still didn't know what didn't know, what could be done. So learning about software in general, if we are working in some sort of technical solution, I think it's super important for everyone in the team. [00:16:37]some, one of the most exciting things about the no-code space in general is you obviously now, when you think about that hard, like a bit of exposure to not only yourselves building a product for the space, but other, no coders who are building projects, other people who are maybe building projects with some, no code, some code, how do you.[00:17:00] See, like the space in general of creating software in this, let's call it a new way because I know there's lots of different variations, [00:17:10] right? I don't know if I know enough about the space to like, Just describe it in general, but I'll tell you like my perspective from what I've talked to from the people I've talked to.[00:17:22]and what I love are two things. The first one is the community aspect of it. if you search for a no-code community space, actually it happened to me right now that I'm starting to, I'm trying to get into conversations with the SAS industry. And there are nests many, communities. Too aimed at founders or people that want to start projects, like people are helping each other out in the first questions that we ask ourselves when we're trying to make something work.[00:17:50] And the, like how much people are willing to give away from their own time to other projects. I think that's super inspiring to me. I love that. It's something about sharing what, because, eventually it will come back. Like it's a certainty almost, that you give as much as you take.[00:18:10] So I love that. And the other aspect, I think that's related to software maybe a bit, but I think the no coders have as special kind of energy to build together. and the other aspect is how quickly, they ship. And they put things out there for people to see it. I think that's incredible. It talks about this it's a new way of building software in general.[00:18:35] I think with most software companies are going in that direction, because if we, if you don't have, direct feedback or quick feedback about what you're building, you really don't know if it's going to work. and I think no-code tools. Enable, that sort of quick iteration, that build themself where it's sometimes difficult to do with, but, it's not only a possibility.[00:18:58] It's also a culture. Like people are shipping things. it's about doing it's about making and putting it out there and then trying to fix it. and I love that. it also, it really inspires me to put my ideas out there and then. take the heat on what's going to happen. it's big.[00:19:16] It's important to be able to do that. [00:19:20] Yeah, definitely. That's one of the, you flips the script on its head where people historically would wait until everything's perfect. And then let's ship a first version. So you go through the stage of Mock-ups and prototypes and then designs. And then speaking to everybody under the sons of building to release and then start to amend, whereas this flips it to just start building and then keep on improving over time.[00:19:41] Maybe improve the design, maybe get some feedback. And it works in two ways. One, this could be like a, Work negatively because you're just building without speaking to people first. So you can fall into that trap. But also I think it's a net benefit just because you're building stuff. And every time you build something, you get a little bit better at building.[00:20:01] Every time you ship something, you get more confident in pushing your stuff out there. So I think overall it's a big net win. I think there's a lot that you could improve on in terms of things like design and building. Things to solve problems rather than looking, trying to find like a problem to solve after the fact.[00:20:18] So you can often build something which doesn't solve anyone's problem. And it's just like a product. it's good practice, but it should akin to and money and turn into real business. And that can be one stumbling block. Definitely. What is, some of your favorite. No code tools. You mentioned Zapier Gushi type form as I can early stack.[00:20:41] Is there any other ones that fit into your kind of core tool set, so to speak? [00:20:49] This year, I found out a lot of more tools that I had no idea that existed. I'd still say Google sheets and Saper are my favorite ones. There are still the ones that I use most like for anything I want to do. I open up Google sheets and if I think there something could be automated, I instantly go to the savior, but I found, in earth table, I found like a.[00:21:13] This new version of that meets both. and I'm falling in love with it. Like I'm building a lot of automations with air table, to, I dunno, to manage for team management to are for our own things. and that I'm really excited about that. I also learned a bit about what flow as the London pitch builder, which is mostly what I do.[00:21:35] I've never built any like full software solution. so I haven't really gotten into a dollar or babble or those tools that are more for as app builders. but yeah, I'd say the new things I've added to target are those, are table, more complex steps, but I don't know if it counts.[00:21:58]and I'm actually everyday Lear learning new ones. So yeah. You or anyone that's hearing this in the future has something to let me know a new tool that works or an old tool that works really good. That I should try. I'd love to hear it. [00:22:16] Yeah, we have a lot of our table fans that listen to this podcast.[00:22:19] I know. So they're going to be happy to hear that. And obviously our team or partner make pad, and we have countless Sorrells in the site, which involve add table. We just think it's a really good tool that sits in the middle of any number of posts that you might have. What are some of the things that you use add several for either in Palabra or personally.[00:22:39] In palabra, we're using it mostly for our internal management. So for example, if I want to take a vacation, then I'll fill out in our table form and that will automatically update our calendar and our employee directory, to make sure that we're keeping track of everything payments. We are also handling over there.[00:22:58]on a personal note, I'm using it more as a database for people who I'm talking to. that, notion, I don't know if notion counts as an OCO tool, but I'm using it a lot. [00:23:09]it does. It [00:23:11] does. All right. So the notion is definitely one of my favorite ones in the stack right now. I'm using, yeah.[00:23:19] To keep track of conversations I'm having, because I started having so many, I'm mostly talking to people like most of my week. He's on calls, and, getting to know founders, I'm getting to know marketers or product developer, product owners, program managers, even developers sometimes. so to keep track of everything, I'm using a few air table basis.[00:23:41]I'd say I have a pretty like beginner use of our table. I haven't even gotten into the maker part to tutorials yet. I still have a lot to learn. but what I usually do is I learn from the, when I need comms. So I'm guessing as, as our processes starts getting more complex, I'll need to learn more things.[00:24:05] Yeah, I think I want to give a shoutout to, Aaron who is a long time friend of make Pat and now works at a table. He has a great course on if for anybody listening wants to maybe build this as it was skills, you can find our automated, all the things, a T t.io. And the essential guide to add table. I highly recommend.[00:24:28] And then of course, you've got also the story using, I'd say in different workflows, on make part as well. So if anybody out there is looking to upskill on that table, it's a good place to start. Are there any, like anything in the space? Which currently doesn't exist that you wish exists. And while you ponder that question, we've talked previously around the topic of things like testing and uptime and version control to name a few, which happened.[00:25:00] As part of standard procedure in the normal software engineering and development world, but at present, haven't been translated into the no-code space. Is there anything that you think fits that bill for you right now? [00:25:16]now that you mentioned version control, I met pretty heavy. I was a pretty heavy user of get help, like the no-code version of GitHub.[00:25:26]we use mostly markdown to keep track of our documents. And I always loved that. Like the version control aspect of it, how it helps you manage multiple people working on the same project at the same time. and I think that's probably where a lot of user, tools of no-code tools are moving to arts.[00:25:49]but we don't have them right now. Like the, I dunno, the con no, it's not community. It's more, a whole team working on the same project instead of someone working on it own. I think that's something that we're probably going to need. I don't know if it doesn't exist yet. I honestly, because so many new things are, or like starting out every day, I always get this sense of a formal with every, with the no-code space.[00:26:19] Like I always get a sense that there are a lot of new things. Shipping that I have no idea about. [00:26:27] And the object syndrome is definitely a real thing in the low-code space. When, when you're not working, on Palabra or any other projects, and we can talk about those, if you are working on anything in a minute, but what would you spend the rest of your time doing?[00:26:43] And you're not involved in calls with people about palabra. [00:26:49]that's a good, that's a difficult question to answer right now because Argentina has been honest on a, I don't know how to say it, but on Almost full shutdown of everything since March. So my life has been pretty much working, doing yoga to not die from my back hurting.[00:27:08]and we couldn't even go on walks at first. So we just had to stay in our apartment. So it's been a pretty. Weird year. but what I like and what I'd like, what I think I had started doing right now, is, if there's a possibility it's going to meet ups. I loved, I always loved like in the last year in 2019, and I think at 18 as well, I went to at least one meetup a year, a month.[00:27:37]in software development, mostly, but also in product or like any group of people that get together and want to make things. when I say this has a lot of like makers, so I always love meeting people there. I'm also a teacher at a local high school. So I also spend a lot of time, over there, And, I'm waiting to be able to come back right now.[00:28:02] Everything is on soon. but I don't know what else I do. I exercise. I have a few friends over here. I really miss traveling. but yeah, the normal aspect of life we'll probably be back soon. [00:28:18] Yeah. How have you been finding zoom fatigue as I'm sure this is like a common thread with everybody as everything moves on to zoom, of course other online communication tools are available, but I think it's a real thing and she.[00:28:34] Being able to access as if you are living somewhere, which is more harsh on the downside, especially. so very recently my brother moved Melbourne like a year ago and they were under really strict look down. So they've only recently been able to go out, for extended periods of time. How have you been managing that?[00:28:51] So you mentioned things like yoga is mostly indoor exercise must be tough. [00:28:57] It was tough. It was mostly like saved. My lockdown was when we started being able to go to parks. and actually here it's, it's about to start the summer. as the day started getting warmer and longer and we are able to take walks, I've taken.[00:29:17] At least a half an hour of a walk every day. And that really helped with some fatigue, actually screen fatigue because it's not just that I'm having conversations actually for me, it's not a specific assume fatigue thing. but the screen time that I'm having every day. If I want to relax I'll I don't know, watch something on Netflix.[00:29:39] And that's also staring into the screen, like at all hours of the day, even if I do yoga, I do it via soon. So I'm at all times, almost every hour of the day, I'm looking at a certain screen. So being able to walk or to go ride a bike for an hour or something, It really, upgraded my log down just as simple as walking around and seeing something that is, my apartment helped [00:30:04] a lot.[00:30:05] Have you found teaching a resume because about that was a bit of a paradigm shift as well? [00:30:12]I found it extremely well. There are two sides. Of course it's not the same as meeting people in LA meeting students and being able to interact with their reactions and. I don't know, move around this pace and have different conversations going on at once.[00:30:28]but. What I really liked about the class and the swim classes is my ability to be able to have one-on-one conversations. And the rest of the course can, the rest of the students can hear, those one-on-one conversations because sometimes people, students ask me questions, which are really helpful, that I think would be really helpful for everyone.[00:30:50] But if we are in a, on a noisy, classroom, Those conversations don't really get haired here. and I also teach what I teach is, it has, a project that they have to build over the year. And they are much more productive this year than the previous years, I think because they have a lot of less distractions.[00:31:14] So what they do on a, like one of my students told me today that. last Friday night, he was like working on his project because he had nothing better to do. So I don't know if that's good or bad, but in terms of what I do, it helps students like move along much faster and they are building things as well.[00:31:36] How do you see, the no Curtis per se no-code space, but let's say modern ways of creating software, making their ways like into like traditional education settings. Like you see every day we, are seeing more and more conversations happening between traditional. Education establishments as well as like new school, online courses, et cetera.[00:31:58]which I think that's actually a really interesting space just because of, rather than having a giant shift of everyone just learning online from like everyone just teaching in schools. I think there's a really nice combination to be had there and like an overall big win. Interesting to hear what you think of that.[00:32:16]that's [00:32:16] a really good question actually. 2020 change, our school's a lot, like a lot of teachers that work in the high school are working, had never used almost any tool online. even if we had a Google classroom, it was still a pretty Basic usage based on what they were required to do, but they didn't use it to solve their problems.[00:32:41] They were using it because they had to, so moving to a virtual. No space to teach, I think for the education community to start thinking about software as a solution to a problem and not as a problem that they have to do because it's required of them. but the other thing I think I see slowly changing and I think it's, it has a lot to do about how we think about.[00:33:08] Creation and not just, it moved beyond software because with software, what you can do is start creating things from scratch, from your house, with little to no knowledge. it's better if things, but you can start from scratch. And I think what's moving into, what's a, w this culture is dripping into schools because we're, Allowing students to build things on their own.[00:33:32] Like in my house, my high school in particular, the high school I working in particular, we're moving towards, I don't know how to S how it is in English, but we were, assessing in VR projects only, like we're not taking any more tests. and if we have, I don't know if they have to learn something in math, we try to build a small project around what they're learning.[00:33:57]if it doesn't work 100% right now, but it's moving towards that. And I think that's incredible that people are like, we're starting creating things from younger and younger ages. And I think that's related to how software works right now. [00:34:14] Yeah, I love that. It's actually something I've thought about quite a bit and had a few good conversations about, I think it's going to be great, especially for young kids.[00:34:24] Obviously their minds are malleable and they can just take to anything. They turn the handout. So I have six year old and two three-year-olds girls and the six year old. And he thing, obviously that you put in front of them, they'll just pick up. Instantly. So there that's a good example would be recently bought a house somewhere, messing around with some like refurbishment apps and they quite like comp complicates.[00:34:50] You have to deal with the walls and all that sort of stuff. So I leave her for an hour on it and I'll come back and the whole thing is done. Everything. I didn't show her how to use it, but that happens like over and over again. I think what you mentioned about predict based learning. It's really important.[00:35:06] There's a good book called prepared by someone called Diane Tavenner who a teacher in the U S she started something called summit public schools, where there was exactly what you were saying. Everything was project based learning, and they saw exceptional results when compared against other schools who didn't adapt that thing.[00:35:25] So there was a big like transition period, but I think there's a big wind to be had, like once they get there, I think it's really interesting. [00:35:33] Yeah, it's a, I think it's related to how we approach learning how autonomous we are in what we learn. And that moves. You said about your junior girl is a great example that we're not expecting.[00:35:48] We start, I think we stop aware of. Learning to stop, expecting someone to teach us. And instead of finding out that we can learn from ourselves and then we obviously need resources. We obviously need other people that have created that app or whatever it is we want to learn, but we are w we are having a more active, approach to what we learn and what we do.[00:36:11] And I think that's, it gives me a lot of hope for the future [00:36:17] and even for adults as well, I think. Yeah, a lot of paralysis if, as an adult, when there's like a higher barrier or higher cost of failure. Whereas if you are creating an app in the old school way where you would save up like a pool of cash, you'd have a business plan.[00:36:37] You go to either raise alone or take someone out of your savings and you need like a developer. It's always the case where it was like a one shot. If it works great. If it doesn't I've left in like a hole with an app, they can't change or I always have to be shutting out more money. I think the great thing about building things with no coats or was especially is that barrier to entry is.[00:36:59] Almost zero is the only investment you need is time and the want to learn how to build. And then that's it. You're not going to be losing tens of thousands of pounds for an app, which is potentially unusable. So I think it translates into both children and adults, which is great because we see every day adults.[00:37:22]through make part to get excited about building stuff, which is, it could be like the first thing they've built for years since like leaving school or leaving university. [00:37:32] Yeah. Getting back into learning like every day. if you're, in the traditional way in the more traditional way of working, when you learn how to do something, and then you do the same for years, you forget about what learning was about and how enjoyable it could be, even if it's a bit of a.[00:37:51] Risk to start doing something new that you know, that you don't know a lot about. actually sweat what's happening to me right now that I moved from ed tech. I made a decision to move from there because, I had stopped learning. I had stopped finding new, challenges and in our, I think in our adult life, If we like get used to learning a lot of things every day, or every month, every year, and then we stop.[00:38:20] It's like what happened? so I think that's, it's great. what the people that, the, our own makeup that are building stopped for the first time, I think it's something that sticks with you that then you want to keep for as long as you're able to. I [00:38:36] think that's [00:38:36] big. [00:38:37] I think it is great.[00:38:39] Is there anything that you are working on at the moment? Either like a public or like a, something pursuing like a private interest on that side of things or something that you'd want to work on in the future? [00:38:54]I'm not working on anything. I'm actually learning so many things in palabra that I don't have any side projects.[00:39:00] I think for the first time in my life, probably, it's good because yeah, because I have like multiple projects inside of fallout rather. And then that's keeping my curiosity at at a level that I'm happy with. but I'm always like trying to. To T to write new things. I started doing it a bit via the palabra blog.[00:39:23]but yeah, that's something I'm always looking for work in the future. [00:39:28] Amazing. what are you most excited about? [00:39:33] With Vollara or in general, [00:39:35] in G in general, it didn't take into account everything that's happened over the last year and how things are looking like for the next, for the foreseeable future.[00:39:47]what keeps me excited, I think about it's related to working in the software industry and maybe  a little optimistic because in the tech industry where, we're able to be optimistic, but what really excites me is how quickly we are learning, to push our limits and to, no, I think, I wouldn't say push our limits.[00:40:12] I would say to stop worrying about our misses. keep pushing and keep trying and try new things. And then, and failure doesn't seem as much of a problem as it used to, at least for me, at least in the software industry. so what really gets me excited about the future is the possibility that each time it's easier for us.[00:40:36] To make failures and to learn from them. And I think everything will be like less heavy in terms of, in professional terms. because it's just like it's part of life failing is part of life. And, I'm always excited about making, having an easier way of living and not stressing so much. [00:40:57] And I think that is probably a really good spot to wrap.[00:41:01] I completely agree with everything you just said. [00:41:05] Yeah. Living happier lives. that's the, that's something to wrap with. [00:41:10] Absolutely. Paul, thanks very much for joining me. I thoroughly enjoyed that conversation and work it. Everybody find you if they wanted to connect with you online. [00:41:21]our, if anyone talks in our chat in polara.io, which is our landing page, I'll probably answer I, or my co-founder Karen, you can also find us on Twitter at Polara IO, or my email is Pau at[00:41:38] And I tried to answer like in the day, within the day, but out definitely answered every email I received. So there's multiple ways. [00:41:48] Amazing. I made sure you put all of those links in the description of this podcast and he has posted or part thank you very much for joining me. It was a pleasure. [00:41:57] Thank you.[00:41:58] Thank you. Thanks a lot for having me. And it was, I really enjoyed our conversation as well. And looking forward to see where this conversation keeps going in the American park community. Thanks so much for listening. [00:42:08] You can find us online@makerpad.co or on Twitter at make bed. We'd love to hear [00:42:15] if you enjoyed this episode and what we should do next.