Mathias Klenk is the Co-Founder of Passbase. Passbase is an identity verification solution that makes facial recognition, liveness detection, ID verification and KYC and AML compliance accessible through a suite of flexible developer tools.

In this conversation, Ben and Mathias discuss:- Finding their first clients- Lessons from Stripe and creating simple products- Identity Proofing and Identity Verification

Mathias - Passbase - Spotlight PodcastTue, 9/29 2:42PM • 35:25

clients, people, integrate, identity verification, build, code, companies, product, identity, verify, verification, easy, stripe, technical, developers, maker, google, crypto, startups, space

Mathias, Ben Tossell

00:00Hey everybody, it's Ben here, founder of make fat, a platform teaching individuals and companies how to build custom software workflows and tools without writing code. This show explores the people behind the no code tools and the stories of folks using them to automate work and launch companies. Today on the show, I have Mateus who is the CEO of past space. Welcome.

00:22Hi. Thanks for having me. Of course. Yeah. When you were when you tell the listeners and viewers what your background is sort of what his past base, who you are, and yeah, here's a quick, quick rundown. Sure, yeah. So pass base is basically a developer tool that a lot of like clients use to like verify the identity of their users. So we basically help them capture like a short selfie video, as well as like a picture of the identity document and then basically, match that and look up this identity document is basically genuine. And if this is like the true person who's trying to onboard to the platform of our clients, we work with like a variety of like clients from all kinds of interesting, vertical. So we have like, a lot of like crypto and FinTech clients, of course, that also like in the mobility space, marketplaces, basically anywhere where our clients need to, like, really know the true identity. And this is usually out of anti money laundering reasons or like just to prevent fraud and actress from their platform. My own background is I'm originally from Germany, from the south there, at some point in time relocated during my credit studies to the west coast. Spend some time in San Francisco working as a software engineer, actually also already like the identity and identity space, like I worked on pacify metric authentications are basically more kind of like seamless, knowing if this is the person who's currently like accessing services in the background. And this was like my whole wedge into the whole identity space. And then I started the company in early 2018, with two of my friends, actually one of my roommate and an old friend from Germany. Awesome. So was it was it your roommate in San Francisco? Yeah. So like we originally met on Craigslist. So it really is very, very Silicon Valley loft? Yeah. Like I always describe. We The funny thing is, I remember when I moved in, basically the day they interviewed, you know, like you, like all the candidates who wanted to get into like, get a room and that Fletcher, and it was like, we bonded on like two things. One was that we both we both were like into skiing and snowboarding, or like me, and like all these people. And the other one is like everyone in that room has already failed one startup. So we had like two points of contact already.

02:52Awesome. What was what was he doing at the time?

02:55So Dave was working for Google. Like, I think, by the time he we both quit our jobs and focused on aspects. He spent almost four years at Google and work there in there for Google X in the innovation division. I think he did a lot of like robotic stuff and also, like go to market stuff for a lot of their like, ventures.

03:15Awesome. Did you say there's a another co founder, too?

03:18Yeah. So So Felix and I, we were friends since like, 2011, when we started our undergrad in Munich. So we're studying together and we're really good friends. She's just like, very, very into like, design and product. And I'm like, I was like, more the technical part. So I could I could actually build what he kind of came up with. And so we were like, had really good skills that that pair up.

03:43Awesome. So how did you how did the three of you decide? This is what you wanted to do? And take the leap? Where did the idea come from? how did how did it all start?

03:53Yeah, so I mean, it's, it's like with a lot of, you know, startups, we started with something completely different and then somehow pivot our way our way to that what we're doing now. Yeah, so we started with something completely unrelated in the in the blockchain and crypto space so we we kind of like build something very akin to like a coin base. So we built like a crypto currency management training app where you could like trade on different cryptocurrency liquidity pools, like your coin base, that Phoenix finance exchanges. And, and here we had like the problem that user had to like, sign up on all these crypto exchanges. And we had to like pass on the identity information to all these like underlying crypto liquidity pools. And we're like this is this is stupid. Why is there like no such thing like a universal login? that verifies your identity once and then you can like transfer this seamless in the background? And and this was like the whole starting point when we we started to think around. Hey, there's like such a big problem. Still today online around identity, where we like to pass over the same type of information over and over again to the same or similar companies. Why can't they share data between of them? And, and this is then when we like to said, Okay, let's tackle this problem. And this is like a super, super huge problem that is still unsolved. And this is when we started in 2018. Working on that.

05:22Awesome. So how long was it sorry, between the crypto stuff to the

05:2720? Until we like pivoted? Yeah, so I think we worked like six to nine months, roughly on that in, in I think in 2017, we started and we had like 10,000 users on the cryptocurrency app, but so it was like, not too large. They were like, very easy for us still to, to kind of like jump out and say with this continue doesn't switch.

05:49Yeah, so that's that was gonna be one question was when did you like how did you feel about? Oh, we've got to figure this thing. What was it? Was it an easy an easy transition, but it sounds like it was.

06:00So I think, I think it's like for every founder, it's not easy to kind of like let a little child play or like your little child die, and then basically say, like, okay, we won't do this anymore. But I think I think at that time, we were like so, so excited about this whole identity space. And it was like, even funny, we kind of like had a bunch of like investor calls, like already scheduled and we just like, tossed the idea around, hey, this is what we're working on. And a lot of investors were like, immediately Yeah, this is like a big problem. Can I invest? Like, what's the time now if you raise and and like nobody asked that previously when we're working on the cryptocurrency? So we're like, oh, shit, like ETF? investors. Like, it seems to be a big problem. We had like, clients that we had, like, early conversations, they were like, all Yeah, like, if you have such a solution, I would immediately integrate. And this is like, really gave us confidence in, in in that this is the right path.

07:00Yeah, I mean, that's, yeah, that's must have made it easier to know that investors were willing to give you money. And yeah, also saying, Yeah, we were interested in this. Because I think that's what people often don't realize is, you know, when you have a good thing you don't necessarily know when you have a bad thing. Like you can keep working on Sunday. Yeah, not going along. And it's it sort of goes okay, and you don't really know. So none the wiser. But then yeah, you can something hidden

07:26side by 1000 deaths, almost like if you have like, a mediocre idea, mediocre product. And it's okay, but like, it will never take off. So

07:36yeah, exactly. Yeah. See that? That you did that. I saw that you and your co founders were featured. Was it in the Forbes 30? Under 30 list this year?

07:49Yeah. This year? Yeah. For like 2020. Yeah.

07:54How was that?

07:55A bit surprising. I have to say so pleasantly surprising, but yeah, I guess I guess we'll take it.

08:03Yeah, why

08:04not? But it's it's it's nice to be recognized that you know, like in the end. in football, you say the truth is on the on the football field, like, like, all these awards don't help. It's like, in the end, you need to build like an awesome experience and an awesome product. And I think this is what we really want to focus on. But it's I guess it's nice. If you have

08:27you can have this sitting in your trophy cabinet and you can tell it to your grandchildren. But it doesn't really yeah.

08:34Exactly.

08:35So how long did it take you for building? So yeah, so you had like the idea of doing this thing? And saying we want to fund it? What was the process and did you get money and then start building it or?

08:48Yeah, so we started a little bit like in like late 2017 I said when we like had this idea and then we really doubled down and basically in early 2013 we started I think in 2018 and we started really doubling down in 2019 so we then like move to to the United Kingdom like to London our pre seed round was like led by seed camp and a few other angel investors who raised I think like 600,000 in that precede in in like really like locked ourselves up in the in the Google for startup campus and you know it from London had like crazy crazy lights they're made like all nighters I remember as always because you know like the London subway mostly stops around like midnight so we several times we ran in order to catch the last subway and then basically like drove to our like apartment we were like all again like living all together the apartment in, in in London. And kind of like built the first version of of the product I think within like four or five months. got like, at that time like four or five like early clients who like even like what willing to put money up front because they had like such a big problem with that. And it's kind of like led to that we raised our like larger seed round in summer 2019, where we like raised 3.6 million and really doubled down with that and increase the team build out, like the sales functionality, and now the company crew to, to basically over like 30 people with like all all people involved here. So it's very nice. Nice to see.

10:31Yeah, let's talk about some of the like, really customer stuff. And then let's talk about also, like going quickly from you three to 30 people. So with the customers, you said, You got some early clients who are happy to pay up front was that from your previous discussions that you had, when you were thinking about the idea that were some of them came from,

10:54we actually we actually the first clients that we identified were like somewhat in London, like in the whole startup scene, so they kind of like heard about us through like the seed camp investment, or like, we met them on like, like founder meetups. And this is where we like found the first people. And they were like, most of them were like startups themselves, you know, like they, they were building like a marketplace for like something or like they were like thinking about, like, I don't know, financial services. Like other basically seed cab portfolio companies, they had also that issue. And this kind of like really helped shape the first version of our products. And since we basically what, what we always had pathways are doing is, you know, like we assume we know nothing, and all our clients tell us what to do. And I think this is the right way how to build b2b startups, that you just have tried to keep the iteration cycles very, very short. And then just like build what your clients tell you. And in the end, you build that product for them.

11:53Yeah. So then how did you get a few more customers? How did like the sales start coming in and get bigger and bigger?

12:02Yeah, so I mean, we, we kind of like, Did always from the ground up. And this is mainly to the success of Felix, a fairly good job with the whole, like, UX and foreign developer experience of our product. This is why our clients really like using our product from like, visual aspect, but also from and this is like, ties into like the conversation here around no code, we try to make it very, very simple to integrate our product. This is this is basically what we learn and have seen works really well with payments. And what stripe did that they cheese, that it just really took out the complexity of integrating like a payment solution in your mobile app, or like your website. And we wanted to replicate that and just like dramatically reduce the pain and friction when it comes to like verifying the true identity of a user. And this is like one aspect that we really want the hearts of our clients and developers who integrated us and some of them just like referred us to like, like their friends who do they also knew that they have to integrate that. And at the same time, Felix and then like later, Matthew that we hired, who who like leads our growth, they really spend a lot of time in like, you know, search engine optimization, all that all the stuff that is out there, we so we were like very visible in that in that industry. That when you search for like that solutions that you found us. This is very much organic growth so far. So we haven't done any outbound yet. So maybe something we should should be starting now.

13:40Or somebody Yes, a nice problem to have. Just everything being inbound, right?

13:45Yeah, it's the easiest feels like these guys have problems and they are willing to

13:51know exactly. Yes, I'll talk about how, how's the transition been from going three guys in the same apartment just like hacking away and stuff to now? Almost 30 people? Yeah. How's that been for you? And I mean, it's been a short amount of time, right? So that's me make a pad similar. We started I started it 2019 January 289 months as a side project, and then hired an hour and 11 people. Nice, but yes, it's been strange for me, and I've gone through ups and downs of weight on the fucking this up, or, hey, this is going really well or back and forth. But it seems like that a lot. How would you find it?

14:35I think also like, pretty much at the size where you are now between like, let's say 12 and 15. People I kind of like really had an like almost like an identity crisis myself. Yeah. And like, what's my role? What am I doing in this company? Because up until up until like, your 10 ish, 12 ish. You know, you're like really, especially as a technical founder. You're like really involved into like, still building The product yourself. So like you write code, you're like ship product, and and prove it. But at some point in time you kind of like, I don't have time for that anymore. Like, you basically you have to write that pull request and and you don't have the time you'd have don't have time to maintain the code and like improve it. And then you're just like, what do you do, like, okay, you hire people underneath you. And then you kind of like, you're in this transition suddenly, where you where you delegate, you basically tell others what to do. And, and this is hard for like, a lot of like, technical founders. And if you didn't know, like, go one step further. Like 70% of my day, today is just managing orders. Like, it's just like, putting in calls, managing orders, giving, delegating stuff, delegating decisions, and, and then, and then like, the other 30% is just like answering emails. Communication stuff. Yeah. So it's very, very hard. And in kind of, like your, your, your type of work that you're doing changes. So and this is like, it requires a whole other skill set. You know, like, previously, I had to be like, technical excellent. Now I have to be like a, like, from communication and people in delegation. And all these like soft skills become really important. So it's, it's an exciting, exciting time. And, and I enjoyed very much. And yeah, that's, that's pretty much what's going on. I guess you you are in this process right now. And yeah, so I think I think the ping me in like a year when you have like, 30 people as well. Yeah, exactly.

16:33I think it's like, it's like three or four months ago. I was because I'm not a technical founder. I'm an non technical founder, but I still build the products, we use no code. So I was building everything. And then until a few months ago, I didn't realize that I was like the problem. I was like, the one in the way and I wasn't doing other things. I was like, Wait a second, this is my fault. Like, I need to do something different here and stop being so involved in everything else that other people are doing and doing the product stuff myself. So then we've Yeah, hired other people to look after in areas of the business. But then it's like that whole manager, that maker to manage your mindset. And then yeah, I think in the middle, like, I'm in this transition to the mid at the minute of I still like doing product stuff, and community stuff and everything else. I'm not quite like a manager. I'm not quite a maker. It's like somewhere in the middle of the abyss, somewhere that was crawl out of one way I'm sure.

17:30You need to pick and choose. So you're higher than someone who does your SEO job or you hire someone who does your maker job.

17:39Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. It's definitely a learning curve. And so yeah, let's switch into sort of the the no code side of things then. So you have your official Zapier integration going live shortly.

17:53Yes, because people might be filling it out.

17:55Awesome. I think I think some of you might be thinking, what is how does identity identity verification, like sync up with Milka? What is? What's your like? What's the angle there? And obviously, Zapier is a big connector of all these tools. So yeah, when you talk us through some of the thinking of how you see how you see the two, two pieces, links.

18:16Yeah. So basically, if you think about identity proofing and identity verification, how it how it worked, like a couple of years ago, you had like, in the United Kingdom, you have on phaedo, we have like in the US, we have jumio and like a lot of like these, like in comments, you know, they basically build their suite of solutions, basically, for enterprise clients. So and when it was time for like a lot of like these enterprises and also like companies to like, integrate their solution. It was like, like a very painful long process to do so so. So they had to, I had to hop on a call with like a salesperson, sign an NDA, get product demos. And then basically, at some point in time, they could touch the product. And like this was like a one to two week process, we need to like integrate. And this is also when we look with our cryptocurrency app, by the way at the market look like what providers are out there. And we just wanted to like radically change how you integrate that and like, we look a little bit like to stripe like you said, but we also wanted to like dramatically reduce the time that it takes that you like, succeed in like running your first verification. And we even wanted to do this actually with no code. So that basically when when you sign up on an on our platform, there's like already like an integration and you get like your personal verification link. Then you can like theoret theoretically sent to all your clients and just tell them like just run a verification here. This is like a dedicated hosted page for like past base or like for maybe like maker path. So it's, and then like all these users can verify it. To you, and they all land in your dashboard. And this was like the first step into actually don't need to integrate and touch any code at all anymore. You can just like rob them that that verification on there. But at the same time we were like, and also thinking, Okay, what's the next step now that you basically have these verification in your dashboard? What do you want to do with them? And we, we kind of like went into like the next abstraction layer, okay, you know, like the most simple database that you have is just like a Google Sheet or like an air table. So and, and this is when we were like, we're really thinking and basically looked at like Savior and like an all these automation tools. And they just make it so easy nowadays, to kind of just bootstrap like an easy, easy solution and glue them together. And, and this is when when we decided to like really go and build like our own savior integration. And you have like a bunch of clients who now like run basically, their super simple identity verification, and like, it just like ends up in a Google Sheet. And that's good enough for them, you know?

21:07Yeah. So what's, what's that process was that workflow look like they just send, they have like the signup process and says, Okay, great, now you need to set like, you need to verify your identification, click here does that and then it goes into the Google Sheet to say past

21:21Exactly. So So probably like, for like one client there like a big like, like home. They're like in the in the real estate business in Berlin. And in they think they facilitate that you can like, like, see apartments without contacting the landlord, and they just like, let you prep the key at, I don't know, like the coffee shop downstairs and then go upstairs and look at the apartment. So the landlord doesn't have to pick up scenes of it. Yeah,

21:47I think I've seen something like yeah,

21:49company very relevant in COVID. Not Not Not yet COVID world nowadays, because you don't want to interact with people that you don't have to. Yeah. And think disguise, like they just like send an email to this guy with their link and say, like here, please run a verification. This person runs a verification, that verification lens in their dashboard that basically triggers the web hook to Savior, savior basically connects into the Google Sheet, they see the result there. And if it's right in those as their true identity, they send again, that email out to the guy with the address. That's like, no line of code touched. And it basically works very smooth. And everything is automated. So that's, that's it. Keep in mind, like five to 10 years ago, you had to have like a compliance department like, like a whole, like engineering team that sets this up. But with like the tools of like, safer, and with our integration with past base, Google Sheets, this is like, literally, like a product manager can just like build this together in like an afternoon.

22:54That's awesome. One of the worry, what are the use cases? Do you see this?

22:59With?

23:00Yeah, yeah, what other what other people doing with it as well?

23:05Yeah, so I mean, we have of course, we may have like, of course, like the whole spreadsheet and table world where you have like a Google Sheet and your air table, then, you know, we've like, we have like, with CPF direct integrations into a bunch of like databases. So for example, you can directly integrate with Firebase MongoDB, or like a Postgres database. You can like send like automatic emails basically with with like, MailChimp, sendgrid. Even like with with with email, you can like directly integrate within like the CRM system. So once a once a user basically signs up on your platform, you can send them the link and then you can again, like put that back into their CRM into into pipedrive, Salesforce or HubSpot. So I think they're just like so many endless opportunities where you can like, now tie identity verification to all of these services that that I'm like, very excited to see what are our clients and the developers are coming up with?

24:06Yeah, have you seen anything surprising that you didn't think this would be useful? Like is there someone just did something? You know, I didn't think of that use case ever before. That's weird. That's like really good.

24:18Yeah, I mean, but it's like in general like for like what kind of clients come up and like land in our in our CRM. I mean, there's there's there like a lot of like, like funny ones, and that you haven't sought out like, some of them that I personally am very excited. So for example, like when the whole pandemic pro got, we had like a lot of like eSports clients suddenly in our like car and they did like online tournaments for for prize money. And there was like, of course, then the anti money laundering requirements. There was like, very exciting to see. And I mean, as you imagine, it, you kind of like also deal a lot with like, HR restricted content and, and like First of all, like if you if you purchase like in California or in Canada, if you want to like purchase like cannabis online you need to like verify your age. But it also like, you know, like a lot of like adult entertainment is like happening and like like cam girl sides and all kinds of things. Yeah. And, and that that prod like a lot of internal conversations with also like our legal counsel. Like, you know, like the whole camera side, this is like still fine because like you were just like verifying the age, but they're like, you have to like throw at someone like the line where you know, like, Okay, this is this is like somewhat questionable if you can like service such such clients. Yeah. And if you would they like think one step further would be like, Is it okay to have like, escort services and all kinds of things? Yeah.

25:52For an opinion on those things, then.

25:54Yeah. And like, and then we had like, really good exchange actually with also like the legal counsel from for example, we spoke with like the Dropbox and stripe legal counsel, because they also have basically guidelines, which clients they can serve in which not so those were, like more surprising ones that that, that I hadn't had on my radar radar when I started the business, but they of course, they pop up after some time.

26:18Yes. Interesting. Yes. Funny. Awesome. Well, yeah. What about what else about like the no code space? interests? You what, how come? I mean, you've come on as a partner, which we're really excited about. So what would you like to see what's interesting about no code for you and your team? What was like?

26:37Yeah, so I think I think what what really excites me about this whole no code movement is if you think that some stuff that we've seen in like a lot of like other, like more technical areas, was like really dislike, making everything way more simple to to kind of like start your own company. And I think your own company is one of the best examples that you're like a non technical founder, but you were able to build your first version of your product. And this is happening in like a lot of other industries similar to that, you know, like, in, if you think like 1020 years ago, when like a lot of these web 1.0 companies started, what like how, how hard it was to like to like set up like a server environment. And you had to like have that server I don't know, in your garage, or like in your in your basement and run that. And then and then like how easy it is to like, spin up on AWS, easy to instance, this was like a 10 x improvement from from then until now, like every, every high school student who's like a little bit technical, can like spin on AWS instance. And if you think not like one step further, then you have like new new companies and startups in that space, like versal.com, for example, they like literally just like to copy paste your GitHub, or l in and press one button, deploy in de automatically, still not that easy, to instance, manage everything for you. And this is just like this, basically what it took from us from from there until now, it's just like, very, very exciting to see that. In a lot of like tech related fields, and this is no code is basically really like a driver for that, that you can so easily build and start your own company. And this is like helping a lot of people just like, like work on their own dream, and don't have to work in like a boring corporate job. Sorry, I didn't want to I don't want to insult anyone, but kidding, like work on like a lot of like exciting side projects, or whatever they wanted to do. And this is really, really cool. Because I think through this movement, we'll see a lot of like, people going into and becoming entrepreneurs, who did he who were like, previously were like saying, hey, I need I can't build this, I need like a tech guy. And I don't know it myself. But with like web flow as a pure air table and all that these tools nowadays, everyone can be like a, like a mini software engineer and build it without writing it right without writing a single line of code. And that's very, very exciting to see. And this is also well, where we want to play a part because like, we want to, like help clients and like developers, or like non developers and makers to just like, very, very easily verify the identity of the users if there's like a, like a compliance need.

29:34Yeah, and I think that's really interesting to see that like these things only get pushed further when other companies also embrace the fact that this is also happening like feet. Yeah, what I said before where people may not think of identity verification and no code in the same sentence, but if you then embrace the fact of like incorporating no code and you already see the value of it, and your and your technical which is Like, a good thing to see that ethical person is really welcoming the no code stuff. And then having this as an option,

30:08you know, like, we kind of like open ourselves up for like a whole new persona that we can like onboard on our platform. Use. Like, previously, we were like, when we started, like the first version of pass phase, we were like, of course, directed towards, like the developers, so like, developers can integrate it very easily. But now basically, that it's literally like drag and drop style, you can like customize your whole verification flow in like, you're in our online editor. And then you have like your verification link, and it's deployed there, we suddenly can, like, start having conversations with product managers, and, and people who were just like, previously not able to integrate it, in this in this brings, like, a, like a whole new champion to the table, because like, suddenly, previously, like the developer had to make their case. Yeah. And we were like fighting for us and said, like, Hey, you should use passwords, it's still easier, the developer documentation is so much better. And now we can just like go to the product manager and say, like, just try it out yourself, customize your own verification flow and make an MVP herself. And, and suddenly, like the developers, and the product managers are rooting for it. So now we just have to convince the compliance managers about that.

31:21hurdle. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome.

31:27Cool,

31:28I'm thinking of something else, then completely forgot what it was. Yeah, I just think this is, this is really interesting. So something really different to what we usually see, we just usually see like lots of tools around, like, how to build a website, or web app or some sort of workflow. But this is like a really unique,

31:48I think, I think, you know, like, so if you think like, what got brought into this, like, whole, whole, no code movement, at the beginning was, you know, like, these website builders, this is like, also, what really started I remember, like, five to 10 years ago, correct me if I'm wrong, but when like the first like editor started and really took off, like, you know, Shopify is basically like riding the wave, of course, nowadays, that, but I think that what we'll see, and we might want to what might be one of the first companies who basically come after is after basically like, this whole, like, like, like, space, there was within the last couple of years, the something like no, like the API economy, the API, everything. And this is where you have like your Twilio, CEO stripes. Also, we are playing in that. And you can see also with stripe, that they are already thinking about that, you know, if you, if you sign up on stripe, you have like your hosted environment where you have like your product, and you can click yourself and all of these things. So I think that a lot of companies like us from this API economy, or like a from this API space, will embrace this whole no code movement soon as well. Because it just like, it just makes this whole space, way more powerful. And then with tools, of course, we are safe here and other integrations, you can like literally integrate all of these providers with each other. So I expect a lot of other companies to follow soon.

33:21Yeah. And that's, that's actually the thing that I forgot to that I was going to talk about was stripe. So stripe, like you've said, You started are very developer focused. And like you're saying about Twilio, stripe, etc. There's the same thing is true. There used to be more, you got to be developers really use this. But now it's like, click this button and generate an invoice or click this thing and generate your verification path. Like there's lots of different things that are becoming like just the UI layer on top of these powerful, yeah, yeah, there's gonna be a lot more because like you said, it's just it opens up more customers, it opens up a wide range of people who can access this, instead of saying, I can't do that. It's just what can you click a button? Can you point this and link this to this in a drag and drop? Almost everyone can and it then becomes like, a no brainer. benefit there?

34:14Yeah, it's very exciting to see. As a technical person.

34:18Yes, definitely. Well, yeah, I really appreciate you coming on. Is there anything else you wanna want to mention before we wrap up here?

34:26I mean, anyone who listens feel fat, feel free to sign up on passphrase and try try our product. I mean, I think we give like, we 53 verification. So that's more enough to like build your own MVP and try out and get your hands dirty. Basically. I'm always happy to help anyone who then would love to have a deeper integration because like sometimes I'm coding as well. A little bit more like on like, demo projects and stuff.

34:52kind of awesome. Yeah, well, yeah. Good to pass base.com to sign up there for checking this out. And yeah, we'll be really interested to see more things when the Zapier integration is live and we can show off some cool stuff. Looking forward to it.

35:07Awesome.

35:08Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. Cheers. Thanks for coming on. Thanks so much for listening. You can find us online at maker pad.co or on Twitter at make bad we'd love to hear if you enjoyed this episode, and what we should do next.