Kenny helps people go from idea to product quickly. As the founder and a mentor on Mentor Pass. Prior to mentoring startups, and building companies, Kenny was mentoring large companies as a technology consulting manager and agile coach at Accenture.Mentor Pass is a website that matches founders with the right kind of coach. You can connect with experts in each specific area (like funding or operations) and you only pay by the time you use as you go. Top advice at an affordable price.Today, Ben and Kenny sit down to discuss the making of Mentor Pass, his experience with no-code tools and get into the weeds of the stack used, the challenges and the why it's easier to create than ever before using no-code tools. Find out more about MentorPass at https://www.mentorpass.co/Learn more about the Makerpad Podcast at https://www.makerpad.co/podcast

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Kenny Hanson - Mentorpass - Stories Podcast-MP3 for Audio Po...

Thu, 4/9 4:14PM • 35:39

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, build, code, mentorship, mentor, business, developer, custom code, founder, accenture, tools, find, platform, squarespace, big, vc, company, helping, cto, life

SPEAKERS

Kenny Hanson, Ben Tossell

Ben Tossell  00:00

Kenny Hanson  00:36

We are somewhat of a distributed startup accelerator where we help early stage startup founders get off the ground. And so we have about 60 mentors on our platform right now. And we take somebody in who may be let's say, at the idea stage, and we match them with a mentor to go through idea validation and then building out their MVP with no code and then You know, scaling their business, hiring, recruiting, everything like that, as well as more product strategy and marketing. But before I got started on mentor past, I was in enterprise consulting for about six years. So I was at Accenture, doing technology strategy with them running some agile transformations and built my career there. And then towards the end, I just felt like I didn't have really the fulfillment I wanted and I wanted to find something that was more personally fulfilling and I did a kind of retrospective on my life, saw the things that were very impactful for me and how I wanted to make a dent on the world. And that's where I recognized that I was really passionate about mentorship, it's had a big impact on my life. And I I recognized that a lot of people didn't have access to it because they didn't come from you know, the same place or didn't have the network or anything like that. And so I just wanted to help improve the system. And that's when I when I decided to start mentor pass so I launched it about four months ago. We're currently in a beta period where we've been focused on recruiting the supply side. And so getting lots of mentors signed up. And in about six weeks, we're going to be doing our full launch. And that's where we're really going to start our marketing on the demand side and bringing more companies on. And the state of the team right now is it's myself and two co founders, Steph Smith, who's running marketing for us, and Lawson, who's our new CTO, and him and I are kind of splitting the product product management duties. But that's the state of the team right now. And really excited about it.

Ben Tossell  02:36

Awesome. So yeah, there's loads there that I want to go into. And then we'll like get to mental pasts towards the end, because I've got to ask about some of those big tech co stuff, which, first of all, like, I know Accenture is massive. I don't know what it does. I feel like there's some people who feel the same as And maybe she's I don't know what So what was it that you actually did at Accenture? Like in that department and see the whole, like, the employee, like 500,000 people or something crazy, right?

Kenny Hanson  03:11

Correct. I think they just hit that milestone of half a million people. So it's a professional services company. And before it was Accenture, it was actually Anderson consulting. And so some folks may know that old consulting brand, they rebranded early 2000s. But they are probably the most comprehensive kind of end to end professional services company. And so they help with everything from technology, strategy, planning, project management, execution and operations. And so really anything you need with with any type of business or technology consulting, they can help with my journey. There was it was really interesting. My first day that I got staffed on a project there, my project was actually on the front page of the business section. For the Washington Post, so I was fresh out of college didn't really know what I was doing had been through a couple weeks of training. And I got staffed on this little website called healthcare.gov, the Obamacare website, which was a national disaster in America. And they brought in Accenture to rebuild it. And so I was day one on the ground. There was a pretty nasty article written about us on my way. To my first day in there, I was doing running process tools and training across the entire program. So we had about 500 people. And I was teaching them about software development processes, tools, building automation, and making sure that everybody was building in a consistent way, using standards and that's where I really started to get into software development best practices. From there, I spent about three years there we turned the thing around, it was probably considered the biggest tech program and Accenture's history in one of the biggest in, in the whole entire United States, we had like CNN, in the lobby some days trying to figure out what was going on. So that was a really great start just getting thrown into the deep end. And then from there, I got pulled over to our US Postal Service, and I ended up running an agile Transformation Program over there. So once again, was teaching people how to build software using best practices doing a lot around test automation, DevOps, continuous integration, continuous deployment. And so I've really just been focused on teaching people how to build better software faster. My whole entire career.

Ben Tossell  05:42

Yeah, well, that's a crossover with obviously what we believe in and what we try and do. Is there certain with that scenarios, is it that Accenture have the people in house supposed to so many people were so they build everything in house so is it you bit like putting on a team too Are the freelancers or is it more of a in house type of deal?

Kenny Hanson  06:04

Yeah, so it's really a mix. And it's depending on whatever that client needs. And so, for example, with that first program healthcare.gov, they didn't really have the technology staff to build and maintain that website. And so in that case, we staff, the project managers, designers, developers, testers, everything like that, and we manage the full program. So that's more of a an outsourcing engagement. But if you look at the second program that I ran at the US Postal Service that was more of a coaching program, and so what we were really trying to do there was enable the government staff to be able to maintain build their own systems. And so it really depends sometimes there's more, you know, consulting focus and coaching focus where we're going in there and working with our managers and and helping their managers. You know, manage their teams helping them go through talent transformations and saying, you know, one of the big things was you no longer need manual testers, you need to start to staff automation testers. And that's kind of the transformation that's happening now. You know, going into the no code stuff before, it was really automated testing. And you know, you're not going to go through and click through every screen, we're going to build automation scripts. Now with all of these no code and low code technologies. That's really the automation of a lot of the development work. And so that's the next transformation that's happening. And going to continue to happen at the enterprise level is they're going to start transitioning some of the development workload from developers to visual developers, and there becomes this kind of hybrid role between designer and developer. And the huge thing on that is it saves a ton of time, which obviously saves a ton of money and especially in an economic environment. Like we're going To now, I think you're going to see a continued focus on that throughout the next months and years.

Ben Tossell  08:05

Yeah, for sure. I think it's funny that like, people new to this whole no code space, or just seeing it now for the first time, and seeing some of the things that have been spun up, like, mental pass make apart as well. And just seeing Oh, there's like a piece of mentorship here for like, and then there's some specific note element, or there's an education piece of like, how to train people, upskill people, but all these things have like, existed in one form or the other, like, throughout years and years and years. And obviously now I think they're told no code terminology is like becoming a creating this group of people who sort of identify with it. And if you've seen that you talked about you are helping teach and mentor people about better ways to build software and automations and all that stuff already like at the beginning. me for a bit another big company. Was there any? And yet you honestly just mentioned then about talk about visual developers and all that sort of stuff is there? Did you ever see no code low code tools? talked about discussed even like, were they ever on the table to do something in like webflow? Or like use some people who are less like, traditionally developers and more towards like, who these automations bestest or something, something along those lines. Yeah, so

Kenny Hanson  09:32

in my time at Accenture, so I left about a year ago, I took a sabbatical and transition into my own business. So around that time, based on the clients that I was working with there, there wasn't much talk about that. Generally, in the government space, things use usually are about a year or so behind in terms of like leading edge technologies. And so probably if you were to look at the private sector, You would have some more of that coming in. But with government, we were really focused on some more fundamental things. And we weren't necessarily getting to all of the no code development. But But while I say that, you know, there definitely weren't the traditional no code tools that you see today with web flow, and Bumble and everything like that, but they were always looking for ways to reduce their cycle time and reduce their cost. And, and one of the things would be, you know, data visualization and things like that, using tools like Microsoft Power BI, and click and tableau. Some of those some of those may get into the space of no code, low code, where you're not having to go and write custom scripts, but you actually have a GUI to be able to do that. And we definitely were utilizing a lot of those. And then some of the more enterprise level, low code applications of pega and ServiceNow. And all of those, those are definitely widely used. But I think that starts to get into the gray area of like, what is SAS versus what is no code? Like? Yeah, you can call pretty much any software application, no code. But I think at some point, we have to draw the line.

Ben Tossell  11:10

Yeah, we have to try, though the destination. And yeah, I mean, the goals of all of that is, you know, everyone wants to create something faster, cheaper, but without a reduction of quality or anything like that. So it we're also looking towards the same thing. And it's interesting to see the new tools and things and processes that will come out over the next few years, especially when it starts hitting the private sector and stuff where I mean, we're helping right now with some projects with the NHS here in the UK, because of all the COVID-19 stuff going on. It's funny to just see how they've got like, they just have some basic things. It's often to do with like, Okay, we've got spreadsheets, and we do spreadsheets together. And we need to be able to interact with them in this way. But we don't want to share spreadsheets and obviously, they have Their own approval systems and all that sort of governance. But I think at the moment has a bit more lacks because of what's going on. But yes, it's good to see that. We're like, Oh, yeah, we can easily spin up something there that helps you manage all that using air table and stack or or something else like that.

Kenny Hanson  12:16

So I think Yeah, yeah, we want to see more in I think, you know, this, this phase that we're in right now. It's catalyzing a lot of things and make, you know, moving us forward and the adoption of a lot of things like remote work and zoom is obviously blowing up and things like that. But apart from the kind of mandatory changes that you have to make into remote work and things like that, I think you're also seeing a lot of transformations that would have been good in the first place. But now they're required and they're they're striving for efficiencies that always would have been a good you know, nice to have but now there must have because you have to move faster. You have to save on resources. And those things would have been good in the first place. Like, yeah, you know, all of these organizations implementing no code and figuring out how to turn spreadsheets into websites and everything like that. That would have been good six months ago, but the need wasn't there, because things weren't as critical. And so I think that's why it's really an indicator of how valuable this whole snow code space is. Because in a time when you have to get things right, you have to move fast, and you have to save costs. This is really emerging as kind of the go to way to do that.

Ben Tossell  13:31

Yeah, definitely. I mean, yeah, I've been trying to spin up a few things, just to sort of show off the power and actually help people to be like, you can just download and copy this thing. And you'll have this out of the box. So quickly. You don't have to ever code anything. And yes, there's still a lot of education needed there. So let's switch gears a bit and talk about yourself. switch from big company to start your own thing was, was no code in your life. Before you decided to take the sabbatical and do it was it like, I want to go start my business? I'll figure it out on the way. What was that? What was that journey? Like?

Kenny Hanson  14:10

Yeah, it's a really it's a good one. It's an interesting one. So I didn't know what no code was. I had no idea. So my my decision was I was going to leave Accenture take a sabbatical actually moved to Bali, Indonesia, because I knew it was the, you know, the place where all the digital nomads were. And it was a good place to learn new skills. They have workshops, you know, too many. Every single night you can find stuff around digital marketing or product or, you know, any any entrepreneurial skill that you need. So I moved there. I hired a developer. About two months into it. I took a couple months to just kind of relax and decompress. And then I hired a developer and we had come up with a rough agreement on equity and cash compensation and we started working Through the user experience process, catching up a couple of the screens and the development, you know, the whole entire process just wasn't moving as smoothly as I would have liked. And so after a couple of Sprint's, and a couple of weeks going back and forth on that, I finally said, You know what, I'm just going to try to get a landing page up. And let me find something where I can build a landing page. And I knew about Squarespace I knew about Wix, I knew about all those and I went in there, and I tried to use them. And I was just so frustrated, because they, they lock you in so much. And I was like, I don't want a template, I want to be able to build something. And then I stumbled across web flow. And that's when my life just changed. You know, I became a no code guy after Hey. So by starting with a desire to build a landing page, I realized the capabilities of it and started looking at the CMS and realizing everything I could do with the CMS and that's when, you know, I ended up parting ways with the developer and just saying, I'm just Just gonna build this on my own for now. And once I get stuck, I'll pull somebody in as needed. But I went pretty darn far without getting stuck and ended up building out pretty much our entire MVP with no code. And so like I said web flow for the front end, we ended up using air table for the back end Zapier for some of the integration. And then we did use a little bit of custom code to integrate stripe Connect, which I assume there will be a no code utility for it soon. But since we're a marketplace, and we do assess a transaction fees, we needed some custom code for that. But for the most part, it was crazy. I was getting quotes $20,000 $30,000 to build it, and I ended up doing it myself, you know, for very limited cost and much, much faster. And the best thing for me was it gave me the creative flexibility that I didn't have to have every decision ironed out up front. I could kind of get in build something see how it looks. test it with some users and then change it from there, which was really, really great as kind of a creative person.

Ben Tossell  17:06

Yeah. And how long did it take you to build that MVP?

Kenny Hanson  17:10

I'd say about two, six weeks, if I had to put a number on it. six to eight weeks in, a lot of that was me. It wasn't just straight build time. If I needed to build it today, I could build it in a week or two. But it was understanding the user experience and learning web flow and everything like that. Yeah, I think

Ben Tossell  17:32

one of the things you mentioned was the custom code of stripe Connect. And yeah, I mean, I can't wait when someone's built a tool that just helps you plug that in. And you can have the platform fee and the user fee. I mean, especially this week, when I've been putting up some things on Twitter about restaurant owners, for example, you can have an app for your restaurant. There's been just so many people who their idea basically needs to run off that exact same model that you have, which is is on the platform. So I need to take this much. But I need to take the payment this way and like, pass that off this way. And I mean, you could do a very janky version, I guess with stripe and going through air table and then filtering out things and rolling stuff up to the end of the day, you can send out payments by just think. And I'm honest with people and say, if you want to build like that, I would just recommend using something out of the box, like share, drive or try something on bubble instead of trying to actually just like force this function when realistically is something that custom code would mean, you would need that to handle it.

Kenny Hanson  18:39

So I'll have to send this clip to the developer that I was working with, because towards the end of our project, we both separately had this idea, which is we need to package this and sell it as a standalone solution that plugs into web flow. And I approached her about it, and she was like that's a really good idea. I was actually going to do it. And so I was like, Alright, we'll go 5050 on it. I'll do the bizdev and marketing you do all the engineering and product work. And you know, other priorities came up and we haven't gotten to it, but I think a no code marketplace solution is definitely much needed.

Ben Tossell  19:17

Yeah, I mean, like you said, it's, you can build something on a one in bubble, boundless, Adolfo, you could use share tribe for an out of the box solution and then like, tweak it, but there's something about I think it's, it may be the, the bias of the group, like we're surrounded by where there's like these tinkerers who like, like you said, the creative flexibility of, I know I want to be able to like just change our buttons slightly to this thing and do it really quickly and have it like and be able to have the control of, Okay, this is my front end stuff. Here's my database stuff. I can see this going in here. I know exactly how that's going through there and I can see it go through Zapier to do this thing and nothing. I don't know if that's just a Crazy mindset of like, like a maker mindset that it's just like, a thing that we need to just drop and leave. But yeah, I think it's funny. Just some people like that way of building? I don't know, I certainly do. And that's, for better or worse. That's how a lot of my products have come out. Do you think? Do you know code? Like, if you knew about Nokia, would you have made the jump sooner? to like, do this yourself? Or was it like you're still in the learning phase and trying to figure stuff out and actually buy chocolate by chance? It's probably a better, probably better time for you to figure all this out. And

Kenny Hanson  20:45

to be honest, I think I would have been too skeptical if I would have heard about it. And people would have told me you know, you can build all this stuff on your own. You don't need a developer I probably would have said no, especially With my background in enterprise consulting, where were clients were paying, you know, a million dollars to get a website built. And then someone comes to me and says, Hey, you can build it on your own. I would have been like, no, it's a bad website if I build it on my own. But yeah, I think that the learning process that I went through, was really helpful, because I also felt a little a little bit of that pain of trying to outsource it. And once you feel that pain,

21:28

the,

Kenny Hanson  21:30

you know, joy, finding web flow, and finding no code is so much greater. And talking to some other folks that have gone through that same path. You know, building startups in the past and having to find a CTO or hire a dev team or something like that. And now they find no code, and they're like, this is the most amazing thing in the world. It's gonna save me tons of money, and time and build a better product. So I think for those people who have felt a little bit of the pain, it's probably the best And I've also met quite a few people who were in that place before where they had all these tech ideas, but they could never build it and they needed a CTO. And so now they're taking 18 months off to go and learn how to code. And I have, like, just happened to meet a lot of those people at the end of the 18 months, and I'm like, I'm so sorry.

Ben Tossell  22:19

I'm so sorry. But

Kenny Hanson  22:20

I love this little. There's this thing out there. It's called not coding, and it's pretty great.

Ben Tossell  22:27

Yeah, I was gonna say don't tell them. I think Yeah, yeah, I think you're totally right. And I think this first wave of people who are latching on to the no code movement, and that really embracing it, are those people who have had all the exact same feelings that you you felt, I mean, I've certainly had that for years of just like, roadblock after Roadblock, thinking, I've got a code or find some technical and then as soon as you open those floodgates, you just start thinking, well, I could do that. I can do that. I don't need to bring some And for everything, but it's like a really good way of building I think that you you know the problem, you know, the alternatives, you know, a bunch of that stuff and you try and build it yourself. And then you can really try and think through the user experience more because of just how like tactile all the tools are to use them and build with them. Yeah, yes, definitely to do is the feeling that pain and and going around. I think that's how you get the most out of no coders. You've got to learn, like what is possible because people don't know about the no code stuff. And like you said, if someone says, oh, by the way, you can do that without needing to code. So okay, yeah, great. I'm sure I can, like, What are you talking about? Or just don't believe you?

Kenny Hanson  23:44

Yeah, that's a lot of the feedback I've gotten is like people people say stuff like, well, Squarespace has always been available. And you know, what about WordPress? And what about that? And I'm like, it's it's hard to articulate but it's just like, just not the same.

Ben Tossell  23:58

Yeah, I mean, I struggle to articulate and be like, I don't know what like, I need to have like a, a one answer. And I can just say, this is why that doesn't suit my needs or whatever I think is more of like, half the battle is liking the thing that you're using to build stuff. So if I don't like a tool or it doesn't work, and the way my brain works, or I can't just do the thing I'm trying to do, then that's like, a few things that's making me think I don't want to use this tool. Like it's as simple as that. And if, like, I remember trying to do Squarespace early on and make pads, either for a tutorial or for the site and notice, like, I just can't get on with it. Like, I can't move this thing around the way I just wanted to go there. Like I want to move this thing there and I just cannot do it. And yeah, I mean, frustration leads to like opportunity of figuring out these things yourself. And I want you do it, I think Yeah, it's a whole new playing field.

Kenny Hanson  24:59

Yeah. Absolutely.

Ben Tossell  25:01

So talk a bit more up through about talk us talk through Yeah, talk us through metal paths a bit more than so what is what's the goal there? What like you said you do some mentorship at Accenture and then what was like the drive to build, mentor pass and provide the solution to people?

Kenny Hanson  25:22

Yeah, so the drive and kind of the mission started me growing up, you know, all the way back to my teenage years. I was just not a very good kid. I got a lot of trouble and wasn't really focused on the right things and and then I had actually a number of critical mentors in my life that helped me turn it around. So you know, I failed out of high school. I was troublesome kid, and then I eventually went on to graduate from a great school and get a great job and, and as I got to this kind of quarter life crisis, I guess, I started reflecting on that and I said, you know, what is it that I am really passionate about and it was just Seeing that those people were so pivotal in my life, that I wanted to be able to provide that service to other people. And so that was kind of the driving mission behind it all is to help people, you know, get better transform and, and the initial idea started with just an open mentorship platform where it could be, you know, personal mentoring around personal development, or it could be nutrition or health or anything like that. And then as I started learning more about business and you know, go to market and refining a beachhead market and everything like that, I recognized that we needed to focus in a more specific place rather than just saying it's general mentorship. And so I took a couple of those interests and put them together. I'm really interested in technology and I've studied that for a long time really interested in business and startups, as well as mentorship. And so we're now coming together to find this beachhead market which is

26:53

a

Kenny Hanson  26:54

you know, professional that has been working for a few years. Mid 20s to It 30s and they're kind of burnt out, and they want to go and start their own business to find the freedom to find the financial opportunity to find the impact everything like that. And what we do is we take those people, and we bring them through the ideation process, teach them how to validate it through user interviews, and refine their ideas, and then building an MVP and 100% of the time, we're not 100% of the time, but most of the time, we are recommending that they build with no code. And, you know, doing one on one mentoring sessions to teach them how to how to do that. And you know, I know you and I have talked about some type of partnership, I think there that's a place where we could kick them over to maker pad and get them going through some of the tutorials as well as the hands on coaching and mentoring. And then from there, it's really about scaling the business. And so in a lot of these cases, the core product may transition away from no code and go into a custom application. And so we have all of the engineering And tech Ark and everything like that UX mentors and yeah, we essentially bring people through a series of phases. And within each of those phases, there are sub domains that they work on and they get matched with mentors for that specific thing, you know, whether it be distribution of SEO, content marketing, community management, anything like that we have those experts on the platform that can connect with them.

Ben Tossell  28:25

Awesome. Yeah, I think I would have been a prime candidate for this. Like I was working products on burns out like want to do my own thing didn't know what I was doing. Like, didn't really know who to reach out with something Cardiff which is known for his its tech scene necessarily. So just yet, I felt like out the loop and thought, I mean, I just try to find communities by being online and all that sort of stuff. There's only so much that is actually valuable there. You end up doing more distraction than anything. valuable for like, what I'm trying to do, or what the person is trying to do. And you hear about all these successful startup CEOs or founders and and they've, they've all said yet mentorship or having executive coaches. But the number one reason, or one of the number one reasons that were successful, and for younger founders, there just doesn't seem to be that option like that definitely, definitely should be. And it's exciting to see that you're trying to sort of fill in that gap. And Can people like plug themselves in? So if I wanted to plug myself in and say, well, I've done the idea, foundation revenue stuff, I just want to come in for the later stage. Is it? Is it plug and play in that way as well?

Kenny Hanson  29:48

Yeah, absolutely. So if you're at a business and you're doing, you know, a couple hundred thousand dollars a year in revenue, and you just want to focus on scaling, we definitely can plug people in at that point. It's just recovering the end. But wherever you're at in the journey, we can plug you in and match you with the right mentor. And, and the point that you were making around the value of mentorship, yet, it's not talked about I think all that much, but it is so valuable. And I think one of the ways that we're able to identify that is that, you know, when you look at venture capital, that's what separates a lot of the VC firms. You know, these these people that are at the top of the, the startup game, if you look at the other VCs or accelerators, I think the big differentiator in a lot of those cases is the mentorship that you get access to. And at the end of the day, a million dollar check is a million dollar check. But a million dollar check from Andreessen Horowitz is very different than, you know, some no name VC firm and the big thing is you get access to the best experts, advisors and mentors. But now as we're seeing the shifting landscape in the startup environment and fewer people are or more people are electing to not raise money or not raise as much money. We want to be able to, we want to give people access to that standalone mentorship without having to go and raise a bunch of money. Because I think now, for most people, it's if I want access to mentorship, I have to sell part of my company and I have to raise money from a big VC or a VC. So we're trying to give that as a standalone option for people who are either not at that point or decide that raising money is not right for them, that they can still get access to quality mentors that can help them grow their business.

Ben Tossell  31:40

Yeah, I mean, obviously, it's capital is one of these alternative VC models. And, like one of the reasons I took money from them was not because I necessarily needed the money at all. It's, it was a promise of, I mean, I saw the behind the scenes so I was I've already sold them on that. Before I even went for it, but it looks like we've got a group of mentors here who actually hang out in the same slack group as you. And you can ping them and just say, Oh, hey, what do you think of this? Like the wording on my pricing page? Or? Like, do you mind jumping on a call and teach me through some of the sales prospecting? Or how do I figure out like, who my b2b customers are? And it's just like having access to founders, and people who have done it and been successful before? And like that is just such a big plus. And yeah, like you said, it's all wild that like, sometimes you could get a family, friends and family to do like 500 K, somehow, but you don't really want to, that's just the money but you just you want to have like, your listen to people and say, Okay, well, no, I'm trying to figure out this exact thing. I need someone who's invested in my company and me being successful here, but I actually need the one to one time I need to chat to people. So yeah, I think it's gonna be huge. Especially sort of bootstraps or like low funded startups who are getting away from this sort of VC model because there are now alternatives and different different things out there that people can go through. So yeah, I'm really excited to see how it goes and see some of the stories that come out of come out of there.

Kenny Hanson  33:22

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I was excited to meet Tyler at the founder summit and wish we would have had the full on founder summit. But he is definitely somebody that I've looked at, you know, earn as being one of the top. You know, bodies are institutions that we want to align with in terms of values of how we believe people should be building businesses and I think that there is a shifting tide away from you know, everything throwing the kitchen sink at it just to grow and become a unicorn and trying to build more mindfully and still enjoy a good life and not have to sacrifice absolutely Everything for the sake of growth. And so, you know, folks like Tyler earnest and Andrew Wilkinson at tiny and Andreas, and there are some other folks out there that we think are really leading the way in this new movement of startups that are often you know, built remotely. They may not be raising as much money and their goals in the end may be different than just becoming a billion dollar company and building more profitable and sustainable businesses, and that's absolutely what we believe in.

Ben Tossell  34:30

Awesome. Well, it's been great to catch up on the we call it the real life of attackers in Mexico City, which is great. But yeah, it has been it's been awesome. Do you want to plug into pass and where people can find you and everything else?

Kenny Hanson  34:45

Sure. So you can just find you know us at mentor pass. That's one word on either Twitter or Instagram. And you can find me on Twitter at no code Kenny and reach out to me on any of those platforms, and I'm happy to chat and my biggest thing is, you know, I kind of chased money and, and all that stuff for the big part of my career and now I just like helping people. So whatever I can do to help introductions, anything like that, always happy to get my hands dirty and help people build their business.

Ben Tossell  35:19

Awesome. Thanks so much for joining us, Kelly. It's been great.

Kenny Hanson  35:23

Yeah, Ben, thank you.

Ben Tossell  35:24

Thanks so much for listening. You can find us online at maker pad.co or on Twitter at make that we'd love to hear if you enjoyed this episode, and what we do next

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